DarTZeel Preamp

Frank:

Just to clarify: My "utterly ridiculous" comment was tied to a previous phrase in which I said that DartTZeel was starting to get some very good press in the States, the lukewarm "Soundstage" review excepted. And, while I may have started this whole thing by my comment about the review (which, as you know, I gentlemanly retracted), I claim no responsibilty for the ugly and nasty turn it has taken since. JTinn and others may respond to your post, and then you'll likely feel compelled to respond to his/theirs. At some point, someone has to let it go. It's getting increasingly bitter and vitriolic, and it's not helping anyone, especially the poor original poster who just wanted opinions about the preamp. And, as much as you wanted to summarize the chain of events, I really don't like the fact that my "mistake" is being brought up over and over. I already feel like enough of a jerk, and this is just making me feel worse. As I said, someone has to let this mess go eventually. It's already spun far enough out of control. Just my OPINION.

Hooper, I have one problem with your post. Try to let go of your allegiance to Tinn and take an unbiased look at my posts. NEVER have I said YOU caused it to get ugly. In fact I said JUST the opposite - that you and I were civil and had resolved the issue before Tinn got ugly.

Next, NEVER have I said anything ugly about DartZeel or you. You are implying here that I AM causing your remarks to be repeated over and over. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT? If Tinn would simply admit (like you did about your original post, and like Mike does he says he does NOT agree with Tinn's characterization of Jeff and Marc and their motives) that he wrongly bashed and unprofessionally maligned a reviewer and his review THAT WAS NOT NEGATIVE, then this WHOLE thing would have ended. If Tinn keeps throwing out insults and refusing to be accountable for his written word and his slanderous comments and he keeps posting claiming that I HIJACKED this thread, then I have no choice but to defend myself by simply listing the FACTS AGAIN in hopes that objective minds will see that Jeff didn't do what he accuses him of, why Tinn bashed him and Soundstage and who OBVIOUSLY hijacked this thread.

It's funny how JTinn maligns me and my job by smugly asking don't I have anything better to do. Yet another double standard by Mr. Tinn!!! Then, how is it that Mike LaVigne isn't guilty of the same thing when posting his long posts? Mike, as a general manager of an Auto Dealership is even busier than I am. Also, why is Mike posting here at all? Because JTinn is his friend and he is trying to come to his aid - WELL THAT IS ALL I WAS TRYING TO DO WHEN MY COLLEAGUE WAS SO UNJUSTLY ACCUSED OF BEING A LIAR, BEING SLIMY AND BEING UNPROFESSIONAL! JTinn has made MANY defamatory and unsupported allegations and comments about Jeff in this thread. I have NOT done anything but point out Mr. Tinn's fallacious logic using his own words - something he obviously has no tolerance for as evidenced by his refusal to either admit (i) that he was wrong; or (ii) that you and Mike are also biased an non-credible for the same reasons he used to judge Marc and Jeff. He simply will not be accountable for those statements and his double standard attacks.

So, AGAIN, who could have NOT started this ugliness in the first place - Mr. Tinn. Similarly, who could have ended it with class and integrity by being a man and admitting his mistake? Tinn. Who continues to hurl insults and personal attacks instead of addressing his own words? Tinn.

Do the math Andrew. If you can be a man and admit a mistake, if Mike can admit that Tinn was wrong in his characterization of Jeff and Marc and their motives - ask yourself who is the ONLY person who cannot do the same thing? Ask yourself who is REALLY causing this thing to drag on? Ask yourself who REALLY hijacked this thread! I think you know the answer as does anyone who objectively reads this thread.

So, if there are no more insults or attacks leveled by Tinn and his group, there will be no more responses.

PS - the reason that JTinn and Mike have stated that some of their posts have not been allowed should be illustrative. The reason all my posts are getting through is that I am sticking to a debate of the FACTS and the words used on the thread. If JTinn's post calling Jeff "slimy" and "an out and out liar" made it through, can you IMAGINE how vituperative and venemous or unrelated to the issue at hand those posts must have been for Audiogon to prohibit them?

After reading about the DarTZeel amp here and in various publications, I would certainly have considered purchasing it. Let’s face it, the buzz has been very good. But after reading this thread, I’d never consider buying the product.

Why? The U.S. distributor’s paranoid posts are just plain weird. His behavior can only be described as that of a schoolyard bully. Would I want to deal with a guy like that if I had problems with the amp?

Worst of all is the fact that the distributor was actually able to bully the manufacturer into selling his hapless U.S. customers units that had not even undergone the routine burn-in process described in the manual! Does that seem right to you?

As Jeff Fritz points out in his review, the DarTZeel is a fine amplifier. As Stereophile Magazine points out in their April 2004 Recommended Components issue, it’s a fine $12,000 amplifier. As a currency investor, I can tell you that the dollar to euro increase is approximately 1/32nd of the DarTZeel to DarTZeel increase. Knowing what I do now after reading this thread, would I buy a DarTZeel product from Jtinn? No. Would YOU?

Andy, I am sorry if this upsets you, but can you understand that since YOU posted the language below almost SIX months ago, and here in this post you call Jeff's review "utterly ridiculous" because the darTzeel can't drive Wilsons, that your original post NOW looks very sad:

"Posted by Quint ( A ) on March 22, 2005 at 11:40:40
In Reply to: Re: darTZeel posted by Jwm on March 22, 2005 at 05:17:20:

Actually, the amp can, and DOES, drive 4-ohm loads--and does so even better if you know the secret. When I mated the amp to my Kharma Midi Exquisites (a 4-ohm load with a few big dips), the results were lackluster, BUT I recently became aware of the fact that the amp has an internal switch that toggles between low-impedance and high-impedance operation. If I had known about the presence of that switch, maybe I'd still own the Kharmas.
At any rate, this talk that the amp can't drive hard loads is rubbish. It's not a muscle amp, but it's hardly a SET either. It can do whatever you need it to."

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=amp&n=68636&highlight=dartzeel&r=&session=

I HATE having to drag this out but every time someone claims that Jeff or Marc were neglient or that I am crazy for debating, their OWN words come back to haunt them. Darnit Andy, I like you and gave you the benefit of the doubt when you posted that the Darzeel could NOT drive the Wilsons but I didn't KNOW that you KNEW otherwise six months ago. WHY?

This thread HAS gotten sad so I am now DONE posting on this ludicrous thread. I am saddened that what I though was a good natured, honest debate in the beginning was otherwise. Anyone who has been following it, if they are not already nauseated or disgusted, will have already made up their minds what to believe.

JTinn, Mike, Andy, bash away.

Apart from finding this very amusing reading I will have to agree with Frank's view of Jtinn not quite being forcoming with all the facts.

You have to be blind Freddy to not understand the real reason why the cost of these dartzeel amps have gone up so much is due to the fact there is a distributor in the middle, taking his margin, as well as the manufacturer and retailer. If Jtinn explained this I think most people would understand that this would have to raise the prices - I won't get into a debate whether the retail price is too high or not. seems excessive thou.

This raises another question.
How many dealers does jtinn have besides his own shop?.

Generally distributors do not also sell their products retail - if they do they are probably not real distributors and should be offering a substantial reduction on the retail price. If I was a retailer it would piss me off given the distributor has so much more margin to play with.
- Otherwise all the distributor is doing is gouging the customer, once for the distributor margin and once for the retail margin all paid to the same person.

You can't have it both ways.

I have the same problems in Australia with what I classify as bogus distributors who give unrealistic retail prices (to match a true distributor model) however they are the only retailer!. They think they are giving you a good deal by offereing 10% off. Bulldust - I call that false advertising and a rip off.