Best preamp is no preamp: always true?

I've tried two passive solutions in my system - a Bent Audio TVC with copper transformers and a built-in resistor attenuator in my Audion Silver Night. I've tried various configurations: I've used the Bent with five different amps, both tube and solid-state, and I've tried the Audion nude, with the Bent and with a couple of actives. This has been done on two different speaker systems, both of them efficient and high-res. The source is a balanced AN DAC, with quite low output impedance and sufficient, though not excessive output voltage.

The conclusions that have remained relatively consistent across most configurations are:

- The Bent was sonically problematic in all my configurations. It's very smooth, but robs enough dynamics and detail to make the sound boring.

- The tube preamps I've tried (Canary and Audion) have better dynamics than the Bent, but equivalent detail and higher noise. They tended to be more fun to listen to, but were more coloured (warmer).

- The resistor attenuator in the Audion sounds quite good nude. Putting the Bent or one of the tube preamps in front of it mucked up the sound in various ways.

- The joker in the deck is the solid state Tom Evans Vibe/Pulse. I tried it with three amps, and it produced better sound than any of the others. It even improved the sound of the Audion amp when driving its internal attenuator. Imprevements were in the areas of bass and treble extension, dynamics, detail, neutrality and transparency. The downside of course is that it is two to four times the price of any of the others. I ascribe the superiority of the Vibe to its higher output current and lower output impedance.

So, a passive can be better than a medium-high quality line stage (the case with the Audion's attenuator), or it may be worse (like the Bent). A very good preamp is likely to exceed the quality of a passive because of its current and impedance advantages.

Dovetail asked Bigkidz (in this thread, I think) what the discussion with First Sound entailed about volume pots or attenuators, etc.

While I have no way of knowing what Bigkidz and Emmanuel Go (First Sound) might have spoken about, the First Sound website says their stepped attenuators are made with Holco or Vishay resistors. I believe the upper models have the Vishays.

I have tried a passive pre-amp (First Sound, before they went to the active design) and have heard many systems with and without pre-amps. My system sounds better with the First Sound Active pre-amp than with the passive (or without a pre-amp at all). Several folks I know have tried the same experiment; they all prefer their systems with a good active pre-amp. Doesn't mean that no pre' can't be done well; I just haven't heard it.

Kalan you are right. I posted above and tried the passive and no preamp thing. A good active preamp always sounded better. It may be possible that in a certain set-up no pre or a passive pre is better, but I HAVE NEVER HEARD IT COME OUT THAT WAY.
I tried with many different combo's of gear and the active pre always won out pretty easily. I personally think those who find a passive or no pre to sound better like a "certain" type of sound. That type of sound is a little on the lean side. To some this sounds more detailed and transparent. I think one perceives this and is tricked by the overall leaness of the presentation. Bottom line, the preless or passive camp just likes it more and that is cool!
Wish I did as I could save money without a pre.

Bill

A meaning of a PREAMP(POWER-AMP) is relatively new v.s. previouse meaning of just an AMPLIFIER.
Whatever we take as PREAMP is actually the part of an AMPLIFIER.
So depending on a number of an input(driving) stages of the amplifier you may or maynot need active preamplification.

You may not need it functionally, but my ears say you need it for the best sound performance.