2. amps-preamps
  3. 1179939807

MC TRANSFORMERS VS TUBE PRE PRE

Has anyone here had much experience comparing mc step-up transformers vs. tube pre pre amps? Several things conspired together to cause me to send my Counterpoint SA-5.1 to Alta Vista in order to have the Sowter 8055 transformers installed. I own a Counterpoint SA-2 pre pre amp which was simply magical with the SA-5.1. Unfortunatly, my SA-2 broke and then my listening room was flooded out (thus the conspiring events). When my listening room flooded, I decided to take the "opportunity" of my music downtime to send the 5.1 back to Mike and have the Sowter mc transformers installed as an "upgrade" and then not have to worry about having the SA-2 repaired. After all, the Sowters' were supposed to far superior to the SA-2 and it would remove a bunch of tubes from my system by replacing the SA-2. Well, my listening room was fixed from the flood and slowly my system came back together again. When I installed the SA-5.1 back into the system with the Sowters' now in place, I was bummed to say the least. The magic was gone. In its place was a homogenized, dumbed-down version of what my LPs used to sound like. Had I not known any better (i.e.; I didn't know what information was really on my records), I would think the Sowters' sounded really good. However, I do know better. My question to the forum is does anyone else have any experience going from a quality tube pre pre and switching to transformers? I don't mean to pick on Sowters' in particular, they are just what I have installed and Mike feels they are the best of breed. I am beginning to think that the problem lies in using any mc transformer. At this time my SA-2 is in route back to Alta Vista to be fixed. I am going to send my SA-5.1 back and have the Sowters' removed and my phono stage restored to the way it was. I want the magic back that I had. And the magic that I am speaking of is the difference between your system sounding like live musicans are playing in front of you with all of the dynamics that implies vice having a system that sounds very "nice" in the usual audiophile sense that would impress people who didn't know better. For the record, my system consists of the VPI TNT MKIII with the new 300 RPM motor, ET-2 tonearm, Denon 103R cartridge which replaced my Van den Hul MC-2 special which it simply smokes, Counterpoint SA-5.1 pre, and Quicksilver MS-190 amp on the main speakers. I have a DBX electronic crossover that feeds a pair of Denon POA 6600A monoblocks for the subs. My speakers are my own designs. They are all (main speakers and subs) 1/4 wavelength transmission lines. Bottom line is that before I ever take another blind alley on "upgrades," I want someone to come to my house and show me that what they have is better. For the here and now, I would step over all of the mc transformers out there in order to get my hands on a SA-2. And if anyone has heard another pre pre that bests the SA-2, please let me know what it is. One last tid bit. If you have a British copy of the Beatles lp Abbey Road, listen to the beginning of Sun King. Let me know if you can hear Ringo hitting the cymbals with a mallet, and if you can hear pressure waves coming off each of those strikes with differing dynamics. If the answer is no, it just sounds like cymbals being hit, you are in the "missing information" catagory which is where I am currently back to with mc transformers.
mepearson
gregadd
574 posts
 
it is somewhat unfair to compare transformers to preamps with which they were never designed to compete. they were disigned to compete with another add on device a pre-preamp. imo they x-former beat it hands down. Given the length of existence of the low output m/c there is no excuse for a modern preamp not to have sufficient gain for m/c. If the preamp does not have sufficient gain i still think the x-former is the way to go.
mepearson OP
100 posts
 
Nkj-Curious as to the differences you hear between the IO and the ARC SP-8/SA-2 combo? If you ever want to the sell the SA-2, let me know. My brother is looking for one.
Mark
darkmoebius
900 posts
 
A question for those who found stepup x-formers to be flat - how many hours did you run them before coming to your conclusions?
mepearson OP
100 posts
 
Darkmoebius-how long does it take for mc transformers to break in? I didn't like mine the first time I heard them. I probably have 50 hours at the most on them now and they sound the same-real "nice" if you don't know any better. There is a "jump" factor with the SA-2 that the Sowters' couldn't approach if they were wired to a defibrillator. I was really hoping the transformers would sound at least as good as the SA-2 because it would simplify my life by removing tubes from my system. The SA-5.1 uses 8 tubes, the SA-2 uses 8 tubes, and my Quicksilver MS-190 uses 15 tubes in lucky serial #7 (the very early MS-190s only used a single rectifier tube vice two in the later versions) and my "newer" Quicksilver MS-190 uses 16 tubes. I normally use lucky #7 only because according to Mike, the very first MS-190s sound better because of the single rectifer tube and better output transformers. The bottom line is that I am maintaining 31 tubes in my system. And of course the 4 69J8/6922 tubes in the gain stage of the SA-2 have to be very low noise tubes which means they are the most expensive grade to buy.
nkj
130 posts
 
Mpearson,

You hit it with the jump factor comment. IMO you just can't get this with transformers. I've not tried the Kondo or ultra expemsive Audio Note... but have tried the moderately priced AN ,EAR,jensen and some highly touted microphone transformers too. Quiet and dull was my impression. They were of the correct turns ratio for the cartridge to see the right impedence.

Some will like this eery "undynamic" sound that is quiet. However, I fall into the active camp. At the twilight of the LP during the mid-late 80's many high end designs, "classics" were put to rest: the Sp-10, SA-2,Roger Modjeski's RM-4.... As the industry went to line stages for CD and add on phono for LP for the loonie fringe, lack of demand resulted in an absence of good thoughtful design(transformers) for active stages . Now there is a rennisance and some very good active stages are available.

For example, just listen to the Manley steelhead with and without the transformers,even though there's solid state devices in the path, the difference without transformers is not subtle.

For the SA-2 the soviet 6h23n is a good rugged tube that is quiet and works well. The 6dj8's are paralleled for each channel to form a giant triode of sorts with better S/N ratio. Roger Modejeski RAM labs can supply ultra quiet tubes at a price. The original Yugo's were not bad tubes either.
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