CD player straight into amps?

Garryh, glad for the confirmation. I had brought my Raysonic to an audiophile group meeting to show eveyone just how great this unit is. All I could do was shake my head at how bad it sounded via the passive linestage, and there was no active preamp there to make it sing :-)

So now your music sounds worse.... where's the benefit in removing the pre?

There's no benefit in removing the pre with this particular CDP. That was my point. Obviously I use one (Aesthetix Calypso).

Just one point of clarification on the topic of passive preamps. There can be quite a difference between the performance of a resistor-based passive preamp and a transformer volume control (TVC) passive preamp in any given system.

Resistor-based passives require careful impedance matching, and they generally demand a short interconnect between the passive and the amp. It is possible to have source components and amplifiers with output and input impedances that are simply incompatible with a resistor-based passive approach regardless of the input impedance selected for the passive.

TVCs are generally more forgiving - especially if you are running amplifiers with low input sensitivity. The more a TVC is allowed to attenuate the input signal voltage coming in from the source component, the lower the output impedance and the greater the level of current at the TVC output. The low output impedance and the higher current allow the TVC to drive the interconnects and the amplifier more effectively.

So TVCs are at their best when they apply significant attenuation to the source component signal, and they can often drive long interconnects without any problem. Resistor-based passives are at their best when they are applying little or no attenuation, and they always require careful impedance matching and short interconnects in connecting with the amplifier.

Bad experiences with passives usually result from a mismatch or incompatibility problem in one of the areas mentioned above or from insufficient output voltage from the source as compared with the input sensitivity of the amp.

I am with Tvad on this one. I also have an APL 3910 and after reading about how great it sounds direct to amp, I have to say that my cdp definitely sounds better going through my pre - an ARC Ref1. I purchased this cdp from B of NY who also recommended going direct to amp. (He now has a NWO2.5T) In my experience, going direct the music is bit brighter and I would say rawer. Going through the pre, not only do I get better bass control and a fuller bass all around but also more bloom, deeper soundstage and most importantly more musicallity. This is not to say going direct to amp sounded bad but with the pre it definitely sounded better. I was starting to save my pennies for the NWO but I think my next upgrade will be for another preamp - the Supratek Cabernet.

system - APL3910 with AKMs and 6h30, ARC Ref1, ARC Vt130se, Sophia2, tara labs 0.8 cables.