Wilson Sophia2s demand better than AYRE V5xe, so..

Johnnyb53,

What preamp were they using with the Siegfrieds?

Hce4:
I actually own sophias (the 1st version). I have 2 basic recommendations for you. First, be doub-ly trip-ly and quadrup-ly sure that the physical positioning of the speakers in your room is absolutely optimal. It makes an immense differebce when it's correct. I assume your dealer did it, but if you guys didn't take a long time to voice them properly, you can get midbass deficiency.
I've tried a number of amps with my Sophias. Cary V12's, Jeff Rowland 201's, Bel Canto Evo 2's Audio Research SD135,
and my final choice and long term keepers, The Audio Research VM220 MonoBlocs. There is just NO SUBSTITUTE for high power tubes on the Sophias. The VM220's were recently dropped fro the Audio Research line so there may be some still available. They were about 10K new. I've seen a few pair on the 'Gon for about 6K. Wilson audio has a long history of showing their spekeakers with Audio Research tubes, and if you call them, AR will be high on the list of recommended electronics. They are well built and last forever.
Sophias LOVE tubes...when properly matched they are superb.
Hope this helps,
Jim

I suppose I should mention the system that inspired me to purchase the Wilson Sophia 2s:

Wilson Sophia 2 speakers
SME 30/2 turntable (don't know what the cartridge was)
VTL 6.5 phono preamp
VTL 7.5 series 2 preamp
VTL MB450 series 2 mono amplifiers
Transparent top cables (don't know what models, but all the cables combined cost way more than the speakers, I was told)
Room - 21x15x10 feet and very well treated!

Similar experience to Johnnyb53. I kept thinking, this is unlike anything I have ever heard before, words simply fail.

One recommendation I received via email is to consider a new source, and specifically a new turntable. As we all know, turntables offer the best bang for your buck when it comes to value and sound quality. Most agree the ratio between turntables and CD players is 3 to 1, meaning, you'd have to spend 3x as much on a CD player to acheive similar sound on a turntable that costs 3x less. Plus, we all know that a good vinyl set up can give those things I'm looking for such as tone, bloom, dimensionality, spacious and natural sound. Another suggestion from someone thinking outside the box, as was the tube preamp change and room "tweaking" suggestions...

But, it doesn't change the fact that the Ayre amp is lacking, in my system, bottom end extension, pitch and impact, midrange texture and body, and utlimately control.

Ultimately I may find the VTL gear I originally auditioned is the solution to sonic bliss for me, but I welcome any further comments and opinions on the matter. I'm trying to recreate what I experienced with VTL on a smaller budget... I'll keep you all posted!

Jdolgin brings up a good point...

I'd also like to add that while my dealer set up the Sophias personally in my home, they ended up in a position I would never have guessed. Room is 15x15 with a vaulted ceiling from 10-15 feet and open to other areas of the house (ie. lots of area to pressurize and the potential of peaks and valleys)

They are much closer to the back wall (6" or so) with very little toe in (maybe 2" turned inward from straight ahead alignment). I had SF Cremonas before, and it took me months to dial them in - 3 feet off the front wall and nearly a straight-to-the-ears toe in.

I'm not saying the speakers are in a horrible spot, but the set up took about 30 minutes, and there was no complicated tape on the floor or "walk and talk" voicing Wilson Audio normally recommends. ???

Don't get me wrong, the speakers provide excellent separation of instruments and a somewhat focused image with okay depth. For example, listen to the opening of Breaking Silence from Janis Ian and on my system you'll hear her singing solidly in three different spaces, but I know this track and it could be better. Problem is, I can't tell if it's the speakers positioning or the electronics that are failing to give me the extra soundstaging abilities Wilson is known for. However, as mentioned above, I can hear the amp running out of juice and I'm missing certain qualities (bass, texture, etc.)...

Hce4,

I see that you are contemplating using the VTL MB-450s.
My friend used to use the VTL MB-450s with his Eidolon speakers, before he upgraded to the Lamm M2.2s. The VTLs are very musical amps, with great mid-range and a well extended treble. The bass response is very good too.

However, two things kept me from getting these amps when it was my time to upgrade.

One, was the heat. These amps run hot. (Even hotter than the Lamms run, which is my only gripe about the Lamms actually, as they run very warm.) In the summer, we used to have to open a window and run a fan with the VTLs running, whereas now, with the Lamms, we just have to open the window. (FYI, we live in California, where it is usually fairly warm all summer.) That is only a problem for 4 months or so out of the year though. (However, for a couple of months out of the year, it helps reduce the heating bill!)

Two, the bass response of the VTLs, while very good, (especially for a tube amp), was not in the same class as the Lamms. The Lamm bass response is quick, tight and deep. The VTLs did not go as deep, nor were they as quick and tight. Although for a tube amp, I must say they did quite a good job.

It might not be fair to compare the two amps, as the VTLs usually runs around $4,500 used, whereas the Lamm M2.1s (the M2.2s predessecor, which has the same bass response as the M2.1s) run about $7,000 used, which is about 50% more. (The M2.2 run closer to $12K used.) However, if you want the best bass response....

The reason I bring this up, is that one of your original points for upgrading was that you wanted "stronger bass output", and I did want to point out that while the VTLs have good bass output, it is not great bass output. As we had done a direct comparison between the two, I thought you might be interested.

My two cents worth.
Good Luck in your search.