Setup vs. Amp/Preamp choice?

Risking some redundancy as Unsound & Jaybo pretty much pointed to the crux of the thing, I'll add another perspective hopefully.... and maybe clear up what Shatern pointed out which posed me some undecidedness too.

Msratty, maybe you should outline for us here the ‘proper’ ways to ‘setup’ equipment. You lean quite hard on that word yet provide us no definition of it in your context.

Msratty SAYS
“The only way to judge how a piece of equipment will sound is to test it in your room after proper setup”

I think the issue expressed here lends itself to being more one of semantics and some ambiguity with terms, than anything else. Namely the part about “…after ”, predominately, and ‘setup’, subsequently .

The ‘after’ can become a lengthy and varied process… not just the simple plug and play integration of the piece in question. A more than fair amount of time, energy, and resources could be used to optimize a given items integration into any audio assemblage…. Or it’s “setup”, that by it’s nature could be quite the subjective term itself.

I'll assume for the moment, set up = optimizing... and not just placing into position the gear. AS well, ‘after’ equates to the above note on enduring much more than mere plug and play, with varied accessories, cables, the room itself, etc.

There is something to be said both for optimization or a given set of components, 'setup' and for selecting those items which can and will work best together at a high level…. As has been already pointed to by the Msratty initially, when it was said some fundamental electrical considerations need be adhered to going in.

Plug and play only shows a thing works, doesn’t work, or doesn’t sound as you had expected it to or would prefer it to sound. Nothing more or less.

Hence the perhaps fiery note on owner preffs, stated as ‘likes and dislikes’ could have some ability to change the sonics of some newly added item. Likes and dislikes have nothing to do with it. It is what it is. Period.

Msratty SAYS
“But the absolutely critical factors in determining what a system will sound like are: 1. your own likes and dislikes and 2. setup. “

The former has absolutely nothing to do with what a thing will actually do, or ‘sound like’, the latter does however. The trailer will of course be affected by the previous… perhaps, as this new owner’s tastes might come into play, if the outcome is swayed from a goal of pure neutrality. I think many systems are off from being purely neutral indeed. Preffs will affect the ensuing ‘setup’ only. Not the true character of the piece.

Msratty
“Many of you who ask for advice about gear place inordinate value on subjective opinions of individuals with varying tastes, hearing ability, prejudices, rooms and setups. That is completely absurd:”

FURTHER ….
“….. So stop running around like a bunch of maniacs who have to switch equipment every few months in search of nirvana, and concentrate on setting up your system properly. That's where the greatest reward is (for everyone except dealers).”
Do you agree?

Not entirely.

You’ve hit on something here, but it’s too critical a line of thought for me to subscribe to it 100%.

Especially that blatant desire to condone or condemn the acts of others. As well as the short sighted perspective in which only dealers can claim true benefit.

Knowledge comes as the result of experience and education. The missing golden ‘marble’ here is that the aspect or prime mover, ‘Knowledge’ is assumed. Also that there is some defined criterium dictating some predetermined method, or set of indicative steps, for optimizing one’s system, or it’s now mystically ordained, ‘setup’, in fact, regardless those items comprising it..

Well…… if some sort of explicative, globally tried and true, methodology does exist do show that to me…. Or not. No matter either way really. I’d prefer to find out for myself a fair amount of this hobby, unless very high stakes are at play all at once. There, I’ll employ some CYA measures and proceed with more caution. As well as leaning more so on my so far acquired quiver of knowledge, and the input of those I respect in this community.

“Flavor of the month-ers”, chronic “Plug & players”, regardless ones opinion of these gear hound sorts, one can not be too dismissive of one sure thing, they are amassing knowledge. How much knowledge is another story, and their affair completely. Those sorts do not get into my hula hoop, so it does not affect me whatsoever. God bless ‘em all. Were I to have a boatload of duckets and the temperance for it, I might be just so persuaded.

My own nature and circumstances push me onto another road however.

Neither do I agree that subjective accounts are worthless. I feel we are more alike here than dissimilar. Sure there are divisions to the fold, eccentricities, devotions, and such, though I’ve found many who tend to have predominately my own tastes for sonic pleasure…. Musical genres aside of course. I value their inputs and have been served well by them for some time now. True too, my eyes have been opened to facets of system building, or in another word, it’s setup which were at one time areas I would have had nothing to do with at all. In short, this feedback has broken down my preconceived barriers pertinent to, and that had prevented me from, achieving greater levels of performance. That list is pretty long too.

I do agree taking time to fully realize what is possible from some component takes time and energy. It takes knowledge too, and that comes as part & parcel, the exercise of this adventure.

But then, in the end poll, isn’t even one person’s Heavenly sound not that of some other? Or is it even found to be it’s very best?

That’s the sanctity of the beholder to decide.

I understand frustration, redundancy, and unanswerable questions that crop up now and then or even repeatedly, yet I believe at that precise moment in time, the querry seemed like the exact right thing to do. It’s just another part of the whole of what a community decidedly predisposed to an outwardly simple pastime evolves into, thru it’s members’ interactions.

So be it.

To scoff or exclaim some goings on are ridiculous or merely less than or simply arbitrary, says more about the proclaimed than the proclamation itself.

If some people don’t believe in a thing, nor wish to investigate it… such as wire, isolation, power line conditioning, etc, well, super. Good for them IMO. What some other does or does not, isn’t my problem.

It matters only what I do. With and for myself, and with or for another.

As much as has been given me so freely, I feel it incumbent upon myself to reciprocate in kind when I see something I have had direct experiences with or some knowledge of.

Whatever the hilltop or mountain someone wants to ascend, how they go about it is their own concern. Very likely, in the process, they will go about it the way that provides the most enjoyment to them and them alone.

There is wisdom within this community to those ends. It is sought out daily. Repeatedly. How suitable it is, or how much of it is followed is questionable. Some hands down slam dunk answers can just be cost prohibitive, or too stringent a measure to undertake for some and dependant upon circumstances particular to that individual seeking them. There is more than a fair amount of compromise a going on around here… and that’s just life barking at us.

I think sometimes we attempt to be perfectionists. Our personal track records prove otherwise very often. Perfection is more myth than reality.

Magfan
“True, so then why the heck are the vast majority of questions dealing with 'what goes with what'?”

IMO? Money. Money, time and effort. A knee jerk shortcut is being sought and once found theoretically, it is pondered still more, and may or may not even be followed! So I think it’s a money thing more than anything else.

Uhrn. . . seems the garden variety messianic personality is live and well on Audiogon.

Once again, we are being regaled with "absolutely free" advice, of the most generic variety of course. A promise to cure us, long suffering audiophiles, instantly and painlessly, from compulsive audio purchasing, the most devastating symptoms of our horrid DAC (Degenerative Audiophilic Chorea), is invariably implied, if we only had the sense of following the true truth (updated version 4.1), blessedly promulgated by the latest born again audio-guru, in the guise of Msratty in this particular case.

Even better, we should flop and squirm in awe!

And no, as my 56 birthday is only 2 days away, I shant seek aprobation by asking the rhetorical "You agree?" I am unfortunatly slowly losing the need for emotional sucker. . . a clear sign of an aging brain.

Saluti a casa!

Guido

PS. If the reader were somewhat unfamiliar with DAC. . .

"Sometimes erroneously referred to as Audiophilia Nervosa by some uninformed audiophiles and unrepenting tweaks, DAC is an extremely debilitating hereditary condition. It was first identified and discussed in 1989 by a team of European neurologysts, audiophiles and tweaks lead by Gavronsky and Pugnetti of the Pio Istituto Don Gnocchi in Milano.
See: Aloysius Q. Schmaltzenstein Gavronsky, Dr. Luigi Pugnetti (M.D.) et Al. Environmental triggers and sex-linked predisposition in late onset adventitious Degenerative Audiophilic Chorea (Acta Medica Refutata (preprint), vol 35, No. 4, pp. 435 - 459. Appenzell, 2023).
The authors describe DAC as a acute disturbance of the central nervous system, usually having an onset in very early middle age and characterized by involuntary muscular movements, uncontrollable usage of credit cards, increasingly severe and expensive delusions, disastrous lapses of financial common sense, and general progressive cognitive deterioration, accompanied by often mewlings, drewlings and ritualistic genuflection and prostration in front of any gleaming audio component.
DAC attacks the cells of the basal ganglia, clusters of nerve tissue deep within the brain that govern coordination, as well as the cortex, which is expected to govern common sense.
The onset is insidious and inexorably progressive; no treatment is known.
Psychiatric disturbances range from personality changes involving compulsive purchase or modification of audio equipment, in the abscence of which the sufferer experiences apathy and irritability, to manic depressive or schizophreniform episodes when away from one's High-End Audio System for any significant amount of time.
Motor manifestations include flicking movements of the upper extremities, hands reaching uncontrollably to one's back pockets towards any credit cards and compulsive signing of any audio-related sales slips, a lilting gait whenever in front of high-end audio stores, and motor impersistence (inability to sustain a motor act such as tongue protrusion), unless ever-more-frequent and progressively expensive and outlandish upgrades to the patient's audio system are applied.
In 1989 the gene responsible for the disease was located by Schmaltzenstein-Gavronsky and Pugnetti; within that gene a small segment of code is, for some reason, copied over and over.
Expert genetic and audio consultant counseling is extremely important, since 50% of the male offspring of an affected parent inherit the gene, which inevitably leads to the disease if the subject is exposed to any high-end system worth of such an appellation.
An autosomic recessive form of the disorder likely also exists, but is very rare, according to the scant epidemiological studies of DAC, as far less females than males are affected. The prognosis is rather bleak. Sufferers invariably end their days divorced, in dept, indigent, increasingly semicatatonic, with a silly grin on their faces, while immersed in a permanent REM state, dreaming of evermore extravagant system upgrades."
Randomized House Dictionary of Improbable Sciences, Electronic edition. (Copyright 2030, Randomized House)

PPS. Bottomline: Dear Msratty, please leave us kindly suffer in blessed peace! Thanks, G.

Sweet jumpon' jelly fish Guido!

.....so I'm guessing tums & Tylenol can't touch that!

You guys are a blast and I mean that in a good way.

Based upon the nature of the responses Msratty has obviously struck a nerve. Although frankly, I not really sure why. It's not as if the OP said anything radical and I don't think he was impolite or overly aggressive in his tone. Could be that what he said is obvious to the point of being trite. But sometimes the obvious needs to be said. I peruse the virtual systems section and I see some incredible systems that, at least visually, appears to really well setup for stereo playback. At the same time I also see any number of systems that are comprised of quality components, but look to be poorly setup. Looks can be misleading, but I'm thinking of examples of wide dispersion speakers placed in front of wall of full length windows in an uncarpeted room. Or what about the big Wilson where one speaker is jammed in a corner and the other is at the interior corner of an L-shaped room? And of course there's my fav, the Dynaudios recessed into a closet. It's possible that all these systems sound quite good, but they are clearly not optimized. It's a legitimate comment to question the owners of these systems priorities.