2. amps-preamps
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Lost that "Tube Magic". Can you help?

Greetings and thanks in advance for your sharings.

My first tube amp(only a few years ago) was an H.H. Scott LK-72B with all original 7591 tubes. The thing was just plain MAGICAL to my ears. It would impart the same character to just about any speakers I paired it with... Theils... older B&W's... Paradigms...

Pardon me if my words fall short as I've only been at this hobby for several years: The top end was not as extended as some and bottom end was a bit flabby but the thing sounded good on all types of music and soared on vocals and solitary instruments. Tones had a density... a harmonic richness... an aliveness... that made me sit up and listen. There was often an "air" around vocalists and instruments that wasn't so much about 3-dimensional soundstage placement as it was about something "other dimensional(for lack of better words)" Sometimes the sharpness, the "splat" of a horn note from a Cassandra Wilson album would compel me to drop a project in another room and come running into the listening room with my mouth hanging open. Vocalists could sometimes be hauntingly present and perhaps larger than life (if somehow inaccurately so). I haven't experienced that since- Not in showrooms nor in my own system.

The Scott developed some coughs and sputters within a few months and I had most of the caps replaced. Magic gone. Still a very nice sounding unit.. bass was more extended and tauter... over all sounded "cleaner" but a lot more... well... solid state.

I'm thinking "I now know what this 'tube magic' people have been talking about is". I decided I would pull out all the stops(for my budget) and buy a modern, reliable, positively reviewed piece of tube equipment that could be a lasting centerpiece to all of my other equipment changes(lasting?? Laughing at myself here). I bought a Cayin A-100T with newish Electro-Harmonix KT-88s and an assortment of NOS preamp tubes. This was not it. Perfectly black background, gobs of power, entended highs and lows(more low end control than most of the quality solid-state equipment I've owned(McCormack, Proceed, Counterpoint)), but missing that magic. To my ear it sounded rather solid-state-ish but without the drive in particular. I tried it with a number of speakers and this overall character remained.

Lastly I tried an Onix Melody SP-3. Overall I found it more musically satisfying that the Cayin in that it had better pacing(drive) and just sounded more musical to my ear. Instruments on the Cayin sounded more accurate but the whole picture cohesion was more there(for me) with the Onix. This is a great amp(especially for the money) as many reviews atest to, but it was still missing that magic for me. Again, a bit too solid-state-ish if you will. I played with replacing some of the preamp tubes with some good quality NOS tubes to some good effect but had the sense that tube changes were not going to change the character enough. I tried this amp with a number of speakers too.

"Why don't you just play with capacitor and tube changes in another H.H. Scott if you like the sound so much?" That's a good question and I may end up going that route in the end but I would really like to have something that is:
1. More modern and reliable. I like a more modern look too.
2. Has a remote control(I can hear the snickering already ;) .
3. Perhaps has even more of that magic than the Scott. Despite the magic, the Scott lacked a transparency that my other tube amps have had. Better extension and control would be welcome too if it's possible to have my cake and eat it too.

Also:
I would -really- like to spend less than $1K if possible. I would prefer an integrated solution.
Tone controls would be nice(not absolutely necessary).
I have not settled on speakers at this point either.

I've heard a few tube pieces that didn't have that solid-state character but they were rather "soft and mushy" and lacked the aliveness I'm wanting. It certainly could have been the setups.

Anyone have experience with what I'm talking about?
Do you have better ways to describe it?
Is this a characteristic of older tube equipment in general? H.H. Scotts in general? 7591 tubes? All OS tube setups? Can you recommend a modern, remote controlled, sub $1K solid state integrated that might fit the bill? Any solid state equipment out there that would really have the qualities I'm looking for?

Again, thanks much.
128x128eyediver
drdennis
165 posts
 
The "magic" is in the EL84 tubes. The bigger tubes don't sound the same. I have a Mapleshade moddified Scott. Some of the mods clean up the bottom and top end issues you refered to.
The Musical Fidelity A-1 is being discounted toi $999. It has a tube like sound (class A) and has a remote!
You might be able to try it out, and return it if you don't like it.
sgs
22 posts
 
I am far from an expert in these matters and my statement may sound very harsh, but comes from experience. I purchased a pair of Mac MC-30 5-7yrs back and simply fell in love with all the attributes you describe in your Scott before mods. I sent these off to be completly rebuild and hated the sound afterwards. Thus they sat in a box for the next 5-7 till I sold them a couple months ago. My experience was these units had a down right lush and overly warm character that was very seductive, but not even close to acurate. Many thousands of $'s and many months later my ears have matured and I beleive I have acheived a system that is tilted towards the warmer side of the scale but still true to the artist wishes without the soft slow and very seductive sound of the MC-30's with the bad caps. How have I done this. Reading the forums, and working with experts from the retail sector of our hobby and having candid coversations with Andy at VTS on my choice of tubes. Tubes purchased by assuming the not informed sellers are acurate with the descriptions is a flawed way to to roll tubes when tring to achieve audio bliss. This tube realization is a very recentily learned new level of understanding on my part. You may be purchasing real NOS and they are not fakes -- but measurements are not the end all to the sound...measurements can only measure the life left in the tube and tell the buyer and seller nothing about the sound. I feel a phone call to a trusted tube expert and a couple hundred $'s of investment could give you back the sound you are currently not hearing. This is an opinion from my experience and I offer it for consideration; not as a self pronounced expert tring to be superior in any way.
tobias
1,534 posts
 
The most musical, involving tube gear I have ever heard was made by Audiomat, which is not to say that other recommendations at the same price aren't good, I just haven't heard them all. Other modern makes of interest to me, at lower prices, are Audio Space and Audio Note Kits.

You have a good chance of finding magic with any of the above. I would also like to mention the tweaks that squeeze the last bit of performance out of any piece of gear, the kind of small increment that can make all the difference. I would not give up on any tube amp without trying Herbie's Iso-Cup footers and Herbie's tube dampers. Shoot Steve Herbelin an email and ask him to advise you. He's never steered me wrong.

http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/

Finally, don't overlook the contribution of your AC power to making magic. I think isolation transformers give the best bang for the buck but there are other interesting approaches too. For an amplifier, of course, a big transformer is needed and these are expensive, but a patient search can strike it lucky.
rhljazz
1,255 posts
 
The Manley Stingray immediately comes to mind, but no remote unless you spring for a brand new unit. I would stay with an EL84 or EL34 output tube amp. Mystere might be another choice.
My Cary SLI50 has the magic mated to the appropriate speakers. No remote and they rarely come up used. Tube rectification is a plus also IMO.
tpsonic
1,092 posts
 
The amp that comes to mind is the CJ MV-100.Agree with the SE tube comments.The Onix SP-3 with careful tube selection,possibly the Almarro 318.The PL1 from Primaluna with a little tube-rolling.
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