MAC Autoformers?


Someone is selling a MAC MA6500 Integrated claiming its superiority over the Ma6600 due to the fact that "it does not have the degrading autoformer design found in the MA6600". That is the first time I've heard a claim that the autoformer was a hindrance to better performance; I thought quite the opposite. What do you MAC Maves think?
pubul57
Hi all, After reading this discussion I just thought I'd mention that I've noticed on the used market McIntosh amps that have autoformers seem to go for more money than the ones without. I've seen some Mac amps from the 70's go for more money that ones with out autoformer that were made in the 80's and 90's. Also I have a Mac MC2105 and I think it sounds much better than the Adcom or the Belles amps that I had prior to it. And go figure, the Mac is close to 40 years old and still works like a charm.

My System:

McIntosh MC2105 Amp
McIntosh C504 Preamp
Sansui TU666 Tuner
California Audio Labs Alfa DAC
California Audio Labs Delta Transport
Micro Seiki DDX 1000 Turntable w/ Sumiko Premier MMT tonearm/Linn Asak MC cart.
Musical Fidelity X-LPS phono preamplifier
Vandersteen 2CE Speakers
Loving my MA 6600 with the AF's. My understanding autoformers give you full power at any impedance. That's a bad thing...I don't think so. And after some many decades I think MAC could employ there use without degradation. That other makers don't use them, cost and the thinking it is not necessary for their designs. But McIntosh has always tended to go the extra mile, and have the philosophy of "bonus built" components.

As for some of the differences in their integrated amp line up. Along with the very musical presentation some nice features, such as electronic tone controls and level matching. Secondary output to drive another amp. Led lighting among others makes for a very nice package in the MA 6600.
Had the 2105 and the 7270,havent heard Mac amps without them so cant compare.I can say both came close to Ayre,CJ,Counterpoint and a couple others.This would be with Merlins,YMMV,cheers,Bob
McIntosh is simply making some different design decisions in using autoformers. Comparing an autoformer amp to a Krell, for example, one notices a distinct difference in how they're rated. The Krell tries, and usually succeeds, in having the ability to output a consistent maximum voltage level regardless of the impedance of the load. Because the voltage limit is fixed the maximum output current varies. So the Krell puts out X volts into 8/4/2/1 ohms, and that might correspond to 300/600/1200/2400 watts, for example, depending on the load.

The autoformer amps have a different design goal, output a consistent maximum current regardless of the load's impedance, using the autoformer to "match" the load to the amp's output stage. So a McIntosh amp might be rated at 1200 watts into 8, 4, and 2 ohms.

Which is "better"? Well, that depends. Assuming your maximum listening levels cause a current draw well within the limits of the amplifiers, I can't believe there will be much of an audible difference in sound attributable to the autoformers. They don't add distortion, but they *can* affect the system's frequency response.

The autoformer adds some resistance in the output path, so the so-called damping factor, or the output impedance of the amplifier, is probably going to be a lot higher than a direct-coupled amp, like the Krell. It's all that wire in the autoformer; it adds resistance. How is this audible? It may not be, but if you have speakers that present a very low impedance load you could have a roll-off or dip at those frequencies where that happens, I suppose. Will the roll-off be audible? I don't know, but some speakers do present very low impedance at some frequencies (early Legacy Focus, Apogees, and Wilson Watts come to mind), so if you own one of those I'd stay away from autoformer amps, but that's not intended to be some deep pronouncement.

Autoformer designs allow a manufacturer to spend more on producing high current into higher impedance loads, so assuming there was some real relationship between cost and price (there really isn't for products like this) for X dollars you could get more watts into 8 ohms than with the non-autoformer design. Take a look at the MC1.2 for example. 1200 watts/ch into 8 ohms. What does Krell offer that puts out 1200 watts into 8 ohms, and how much does it cost? Of course, the MC1.2 will still put out 1200 watts into 4 ohms, while the Krell is putting out twice the watts into 4 ohms, but since the MC1.2 starts out so much higher in power, you don't really see the two design approaches differ until very low impedances, when even a low-end Krell amp is putting out over 2000 watts, assuming you have a 220v/30amp power line running to the silly thing.

So are autoformer amps better or worse than direct-coupled amps? For most speaker loads you'll never hear a difference, but I admit to strongly preferring the direct-coupled approach, assuming you can afford a good enough amp that it does indeed act like a good voltage source, like a Krell. I think a very low output impedance is indicative of a better design, but I wouldn't bet five cents on my ability to tell the difference in a double-blind test. It's just my opinion, but I'm the buyer so I get to have one that counts!
I don't own McIntosh, but for the last 10-15 years, their amplifiers have been excellent and increasingly desirable sonically. I am a SET tube amp listener, yet ironically I am most likely to become a McIntosh owner when I can find the money and space for a pair of MC1201 mono blocks or their MC1.2kw successors.

Philosophically, as someone who has built amps and as a listener, I am inclined toward direct coupled designs, but the proof is in the listening. Forget your topological biases and there will be no doubt that no existing direct coupled McIntosh solid state integrated amp equals the musicality, tone density and overall fidelity of the autoformer-based amplifiers above them in the line.

The 6300 and 6500 are certainly quite good for what they are, and well-made too. The autoformer 6600, 6900 and 7000 are as a group distinct step-ups in musical truth. The next step function boost in fidelity comes when the quad differential circuit is added to the mix, in the power amps from 402 and up. I'd love to see a 7000 add the quad-diff circuit.

Go have a listen and decide for yourself.

Phil