Power output of tube amps compared to solid states

Interesting conversations. The original conversations changed from the definition of power to sound quality of tube vs. solid state amps. There is an amazing bias here between the tube lovers and solid state lovers and music lovers. Personally, if the music doesn't sound real, then I couldn't care less if it is solid state or tube. Same logic applies if the sound drives me out of the room. As I mentioned previously, quality designed tube or solid state amps would reproduce the signal accurately and both sound wonderful. Speakers have various impedances and some are easlier to drive than others and that really affects whether the amps would work well or not. There are many various criteria for amp design. Imput impedance, gain, output impedance, current capacity, voltage, power output into specific loads, etc. All of these criteria can help determine if the design and construction and parts used should be of higher quality or not. Some times, more than not, you really do get what you pay for. All that said, I have listened to some wonderful tube equipment and also have listened to some equally wonderful solid state equipment. Nothing is perfect yet. it would be hard to design and build perfect. First, you have to assume that the music was recorded 100% correctly, using equally great recording equipment and that just simply is not the case. Maybe with Mark Levinson or Manley recording gear, but in most cases, the music isn't recorded perfectly from the beginning. Then send the signal from a source (album or cd or tape) to your preamp. Well, the cables have impedance don't forget and will slightly degrade the signal, unless corrected for. the pre-amp will degrade the signal. not one is perfect. The cables from the pre-amp to the amp degrade the signal. The amp will degrade and the speakers aren't perfect in reproducing signals either. See where I'm going? At this point in our scientific history, we aren't there yet. Electricity over wires and through tubes, resistors, inductors, capacitors, transformers, etc. will produce distortions and have losses. Can't get around it. Can a tube amp beat a solid state amp? absolutely, same can be said visa versa. How were they designed and built? Were they designed and built on the same price point? power output?, etc. if not, you are comparing apples to oranges.

I love good, accurately reproduced music and couln'd care less if it came from tubes or solid state. If it is right, then it is right.

enjoy

Atmasphere, I suspect that some like; Jim Strickand of Acoustat, Roger Sanders of Sanders Sound Systems (formerly Innersound), Roger West of Sound Lab, Gayle Sanders of Martin Logan, Nelson Pass of First Watt, and Dave Wilson of Wilson Audio might disagree with your proclamation re: the suitability of ss with the types of speakers you've mentioned.
Some would argue that it's actually the additional coloration of tubes that make them appealing.
I would argue that there is greater chance of flushing money down the loo by prioritizing speaker choice to accommodate amplification rather than choosing a speaker which fits in ones budget, works in ones room, and which offer the least objectionable coloration's for the individual purchasing them.

Unsound, if they disagree, its only because they have not been studying what happens that is different between tubes and transistors with respect to how they drive a load. Roger Sanders and I already went around on this one, and if you ask Roger West, he'll tell you that a lot of his customers use our amps... and Nelson Pass has different nomenclature as he uses Voltage Paradigm terms and I don't, but he and I are on the same page here. Just look at his articles about 'current source' amplifiers.

You might also look at a great article written by the chief engineer of EV http://paulspeltz.com/tomcik/index.html

What you get from this article is that there are no known examples of speakers needing over 20:1 damping factors, but that there are speakers that need damping factors of 0.1:1. IOW, the Voltage Paradigm does not work for all drivers.

Sorry for the OT- this really deserves a different thread.

Atmasphere, I do believe your argument has merit. It's just interesting that a couple of those ESL designers also designed ss amps to be used with them. Nelson Pass used ESL's amongst others when developing the Threshold amps. J. Gordon Holt, founder of Stereophile used both tubes and ss with his ESL's. Many of the others used both tubes and ss when demonstrating their speakers at big shows. I would imagine they would want to demonstrate them at their best, and at the very least, not at their worst. I'm sure many who can afford them, use your fine amps where appropriate.
The damping factor issue is a whole new ball of wax, and yes, your probably right, better for a different thread.

Unsound, you are right, a lot of ESL designers do work with solid state. I am of the opinion that they have a particular challenge- break out of the niche that they are in by coming up with an ESL that actually works with transistors...

The problem is two-fold. First, the impedance decreases as frequency increases, meaning that a transistor amp will make more power, causing brightness. Bass is an issue, as there can be some pronounced impedance peaks in the impedance curve. This prevents a transistor amp from making power. This is why a 200 watt tube amp can keep up with a 600 watt transistor amp on a set of Sound Labs, as the 600 watt amp may only be able to make 75 watts in the bass, where the tube amp can be capable of nearly full power.

The second is of course that the impedance curve has nothing to do with driver or box resonance, something that is fundamental to the operation of the Voltage Paradigm. In fact ESLs prefer to see flat power response out of the amp rather than flat voltage response.

To limit these issues a lot of ESL guys keep the speaker impedance very low- 4 ohms in the bass and 0.5 ohms at 20KHz is common. You still have the 8:1 change in impedance, but many transistor amps cannot make much in the way of additional power into 0.5 ohms and at that impedance, the speaker cable itself is a huge limiting factor. Its a band-aid approach, and when you see this its an ESL manufacturer that wants to cash in on the extra market share that they see in transistors.

You may have noticed that this is an entirely different example of how a tube amp with less power can be more powerful than a transistor amp; whenever you are dealing with high impedances this can be the case. Sound Labs have a peak of over 40 ohms in the bass. The 600-watt transistor amp above driving that peak might only make 75-100 watts.