Room treatment success story

Edge22 - congrats on your GIK transaction and its impact on your room. You're well on your way to improving your room/system sound! I would HIGHLY recommend you buy and read Dr Floyd Toole's latest book (http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269601512&sr=1-1) before you spend anymore money so that you (1)buy and/or make the right kinds of products, and (2)better understand where to place treatments and why they work the way they do.

A member above recommended the LEDE (live-end, dead-end) style of treating a room -- I'd stay away from that and here's why: The LEDE concept is something that came out of the 1970's from Don/Chip Davis/Syn Aud Con for recording control rooms. It's based on mostly ill-conceived ideas that stem from a misunderstanding of the Haas effect, which describes the level at which a delayed reflection sounds equally loud to the direct sound. The Hass effect has nothing to do with the audibility of a reflection which is 30-40 dB lower in level than the Hass effect. I would not recommend an LEDE room since they sound very strange, they do not achieve what they claim, and to work well you need to add tons of absorption.

Toole's philosophy with acoustical treatment is to diffuse or absorb reflections that do harm at the listening area, and leave alone the ones that do potential good. Everything else can be ignored since they never arrive at the listeners' ears or if they do, they are well below the threshold of harm.

Also mentioned by Schipo above - who's obviously read Toole's book - is that the lateral side wall reflections are beneficial, particularly in stereo, since they can produce greater apparent source width and spaciouness, while the front/rear reflections can decrease these attributes since they come from the same direction as the direct sound, increasing the Interaural Cross Correlation Coefficient (IACC). This is why the back wall is often treated first and also because you're sitting closer to it so the audible affects will he heard more than front wall treatment due to larger atttenuation caused by signal propogation loss and the repeated surface impacts on the sound's way to the front wall. If you want to have more focussed imaging you can always choose to absorb the first side-wall reflections, personal preferences prevail.

Moreover, diffusion and absorption should be wide-band to ensure that you are attenuating the entire spectrum of the reflection rather than simply applying a low pass filter to the reflection, which causes timbral colouration. So you need 3-4 inches of high density fibreglass to work down to 200 Hz and 2-4 ft wide-band diffusers.

Edge22, you may wish to explore the DIY route as an effective yet economical way of pursuing further treatments. For example, I've got 8 GIK Tri-Traps in a single back wall corner making a 7' high rectangle shaped bass trap that's 24" wide by 24" deep with an air space of 6-7" behind it which cost $$$. For the same money I could have built way more traps AND diffusion . . .

If you want to know how to build a Skyline or Hemi-Cylindrical diffuser - both of which are excellent at preventing a 'dead' sounding room - then email me.

Good luck!

Rrog,

i only do such listening when i am tweaking. i am talking (re)position of speakers.
Also, my room was in a paint prog, so i do not just suggest all do exactly the same in their rooms. There are key elements that are pretty common though.
I had great contact with a manufacturer, they told me what i ultimately was to work with first.
I have also leveled with 4 acoustic companies before treating this specific room.
Even though they suggest a bit different, the start off point is similar.
Ofcourse rooms alter - even sonics.
There are audiofreaks changing cables, cdps etc etc to balance the percepted sound. Even though they might be better off looking over the acoustics first. Even a room that seems ok, might benefit from treatment.
Some alter this with cables. That is kind of chasing a ghost with butterfly net.
Just currently, a quite large cable manufacturer suggested i would skip the Gik package, and invest the money in their cables instead. They told me many clients had complained of same things as me, and all was bettered with the good cables they make. That pretty much tells me how screwed up the scene can be.
As i leveled pretty much with Tony Gee (Tg-acoustics) about this, he also confirmed how common this is.
I was in at a local small dealer. They have an extremely treated room (with quite large speakers). When i told them, they have great sound in their small room, and that it sound horrible at my friends home (he bought a system from them), they say it is for demo purpose and not at all needed. They say this, due to the fact many clients bought oversized speakers and and expected this would sound great in their rooms. When my friend set up his system, it sounded really bad. Go figure if he should start altering electronics and cables due to the fact he listened to them.
He could blow off so much money and never start off correct.
There are many storries i have heard that are close to this.
Not all have had opportunity to hear what room treatment and better placements can do.
Those that knows, don't have to care for this. But again, not everbody have had the chance to actually go hear differences (before/after).

I still await my full kit. It's currently being built:)
So i'll have to wait.

Inpieces, I agree with all you wrote. You are on the right track. Keep me posted, I am interested in how it goes.

Hi Rrog and ofcourse the rest of you.

I intended to do an easy compair and not complicate too much. A before and after the tweak.
Mainly keep it down to the most obvious.
Also to see, if it is ok, to use larger speakers in small listening rooms.
I will try to tell of sonics, if it alters or not.
What will change, for better or worse.
How i percept the all in all sound(field) and also, bass, mid and the top.
I only use, the typical start off kit, though, very extended due to the small size of my room.
All in all 7 panels and 8 bass absorbers.

When i had my room painted and requested help.
I explained i wanted pin point focus, heavily reduced flutter echo and fast deep bass with dynamical contrast and impact.
Flutter echo in itself, makes the sound blurr.
If just reducing flutter echo and 1-3 bass nodes (pending on rooms), it is an incredible change.
I hope it turns out well.

Either i start off a new thread named GIK Acoustic treatments (or similar)... or post here.
Expect minimum 10 days as nothing has been shipped.

So, what do you do, with a room that is really quite much to small for the speakers - you just must have?

Does it even work decent?

Counting, from the size of my room and looking on how large a recommended listening room would be - for my speakers (Monitor Audio PL 300).
We talk numbers from 60-70% larger.
My room have these numbers: 515cm wide and 388cm deep. Height (floor to ceiling) about 247cm.

So, how does this work?

In the begining, the room suffered from flutter echo. But to my surprise, not as big of a subject for worst room-boom as numbers suggested.

As i listen to quite much alternative, i also listen to Canadian Frontline Assembly. The album Epitaph, push low bass and trigger nodes like nothing else.
Many highend speakers can sound compressed with this album.
A few speakers sounded just terrible, some are handling it superb.
If this album works in a room, i guess no-one will have problem with bass nodes in that room (happy you;)

For most music and probably 90% of what i have. My untreated room had a clear masking effect due to flutter echo. Also bass made blemishes that added to less than ideal results.
All people does not seem to find issues with this - the dark side of acoustics.
I have friends having even worse. Still changing very expensive cdp, cables etc etc without even caring for the acoustics.
Well, enough of that.

I contacted some acoustic companies and decided to buy what looked most in synergi talking shape/ size and colour options.
My choice became Gik Acoustics. So, i did a check up and found fair kits. I suspected these would not help me. Mosty due to the fact that the kits had lesser panels and bass absorbers, so i contacted GIK.
After same paintings and mails, i decided to buy a kit, suiting better in my room.
Mainly to absorb bass and reflection/ echo.
Most units are made to be wall mounted, or you can use them an optional stands. I decided to buy optional stands making them easier to move + no need to use nails in the walls.

The corners behind the speakers (front wall from listening position), i decided to use TRItraps.
2 units in each corner.

Behind the loudspeakers i placed 1 unit 244 panel, behind each speaker.
Between them, i placed 1 unit 242 panel (center of room).

Behind my sofa, (rear wall), i placed 1 unit of TRItrap in each corner. Above the TRItrap, i was going to mount 1 unit 244 panel, in the angle of rear wall and sidewall.
(i did not)

Directly behind my sofa i placed 2 units of Monster bass absorbers.

At the sides (left / right), between listening position (sofa) and the loudspeakers i have 1 unit of 242 panel at the first reflection.

To detect that is easy, when you sit in listening position, have a friend hold a mirror. When you view the loudspeaker, you see the first reflection.

The remaing 2 units of 244 panels, those that was ment to hang over the TRItraps of the rearwall.
I have now placed these, between the 244 units that are situated behind the loudspeakers and the dual TRItraps .

The difference is a more coherent soundfield. The slight blurr and smear of the flutter echo, and rumbling bass are very very reduced.
The readability - better view the very layeres of material, the dynamical contrast and impact. The silence the focus and depth.
Bass is more agile and clean impact is more firm. The whole music flows different when start and stop are more defined and firm. This is hard for me to put words on, it is just so much better. If you suspect you might need treatment, you probably do.

Sonics does not alter. I would say this is a very good upgrade.

I have a new loudspeaker cable. I compaired these two i have, before i got my GIK kit. The difference is way more obvious now.

I can concluded that in my case this is a very good upgrade.

I think it looks quite good, all units are black, they are easy to move on stands. Music sounds alot better, i better see into to soundfield and better orientate in the event.
There are no downsides of harsh treble response, shrill, thin, cold or too little bass. There are no holes or dips.

I had large industrial absorbers at one time. I bought them to try. Those are not made for music.
What happened was that the sound became dead, it felt as whole frequencies were sucked out and the experience was terrible.

There are probably bad absorbers and treatment avaible.
I have no intention to say these are good if they were not. IMO, this is a very nice upgrade and it helps you better hear what your system can do.

For 90% of the music i have, it is terrific and hope that a few more dare to invest to achieve audio-nirvana. The remaining 10%, is just when the lowest bass is too powerful in it's output.

If you listen alot to electronica with heavy/ low frequent bass. See to it that you are not buying to small absorbers.
As for me, i could use 2 more TRItraps and 1 unit Monster bass more.

I am sorry if it is somewhat inconclusive and/ or unclear - what i experience. If anyone asks (whatever really), i will try to answer best i can.