Volume control vs. attenuation control

I would try the combination you like, then do some critical listening. A/B between that and their suggested setting, and see if you loose/gain anything. If it sounds the same (better possibly?), go for it.

I would adjust the amp in so that I could turn the pre up to about 3:00or 0db for normal use as they say.

Can someone please explain the difference between a volume control on an amp and an attenuation control on a pre amp.

You start with a very small voltage signal from a source like phono cartridge and follow that with a series of amplifiers that make the voltage bigger. Typically some voltage gain stages in the phono section, more in the preamp, and more in the power amp. The gain of these amps is fixed. To control the volume you insert at least one voltage divider in the path to control how much gets through.

Attenuator sounds more impressive than volume control but they are exactly the same thing. They are voltage dividers that reduce (attenuate) the voltage to the level you want. It could be at the output of the source, input or output of the pre, or input of the amp, basically anywhere in the signal path, or you can have one in all of those places. Whoever made your stuff decided to call the one in the preamp an attenuator.

Technically an 'attenuator' cuts the signal before any amplification stages.

No, attenuate means to reduce, it doesn't matter where you do it. If it reduces the amplitude of the signal it is an attenuator no matter whether it is before or after the gain stage.

Anything that attenuates the signal also reduces the volume so therefore they are the same thing.

A volume control actually changes the active amplification of the signal, from well below less than what it comes in as, to increasing it.

That would be extremely unusual. As stated above, the gain of almost all active stages is fixed. The volume control is merely dividing the voltage so you get the level you want. It isn't possible for a typical volume control to increase the amplification of the signal.

Let's say you had a preamp stage with a gain of 10 which means if you put 1 volt in and turn it all the way up you would get 10 volts out. If you wanted only 2 volts out you would have to turn the volume control so it was a 5:1 voltage divider.

1 times 10 divided by 5 = 2

.

03-14-11: Herman
Elizabeth wrote:
"Technically an 'attenuator' cuts the signal before any amplification stages."

No, attenuate means to reduce, it doesn't matter where you do it. If it reduces the amplitude of the signal it is an attenuator no matter whether it is before or after the gain stage.

as a practical matter, when it comes to the way that preamplifiers actually work, elizabeth is correct. the way that preamplifiers actually work is that they are designed to a set input sensitivity level. however, some sources might be higher or lower than that input sensitivity level. sources that are higher are "hot" sources, so when you switch to a "hot" source, your volume setting may become too high. if the source is really hot you may have to turn the volume down really low. what an attenuator does is to allow you to better control for differing voltage levels from differing sources by applying differing levels of signal reduction at the input. any gain would then occur within the preamplifier from that point.

03-14-11: Herman
Elizabeth wrote:
"A volume control actually changes the active amplification of the signal, from well below less than what it comes in as, to increasing it."

That would be extremely unusual. As stated above, the gain of almost all active stages is fixed. The volume control is merely dividing the voltage so you get the level you want. It isn't possible for a typical volume control to increase the amplification of the signal.

your explanation is incorrect. gain is determined by the ratio of input signal amplitude to output signal amplitude. the output signal amplitude from the preamplifier varies in response to the volume setting of the preamplifier. therefore, the gain from the preamplifier does indeed vary as elizabeth suggested.

as an aside, i will add that it is incorrect to say that an attenuator and a volume control are the same thing, because they aren't. depending upon the volume control setting you do often get gain as a result of the volume control (i will let others add comments specific to passive preamplifiers as i am not addressing that device in my comments) but you, of course, never get gain from an attenuator. and, as i stated above, it is also incorrect to say that the gain of a preamplifier is fixed: the reason why people use preamplifiers is to get variably controllable gain.

Paperw8, I think you may have misread Herman's comment. Note that he did not say that the gain of a preamplifier is fixed. He said that "the gain of almost all active STAGES is fixed." That is a correct statement, as are the rest of his comments, IMO. The statement in his post that "the gain of these amps is fixed" was clearly a reference to amplifier STAGES, when considered in the context of the surrounding paragraph.

It is certainly possible to design an active stage whose gain can be directly varied by the setting of a potentiometer, and where the maximum gain setting is greater than 1. An example would be an op amp stage with a pot in the feedback loop. However, that "would be extremely unusual" (to use Herman's words) in a quality audio design.

Regarding preamps that provide independent level settings for each input, to allow similar settings of the main volume control to be used for sources having significantly different output levels, it obviously makes sense to not refer to those controls AND to the main volume control as "volume controls," which would lead to confusion as to what was being referred to. So it would make sense in that situation to refer to the controls at the input as attenuators or input level controls. But those controls and the main volume control are doing the same thing, just at different points in the signal path, and with different kinds of adjustability.

In Mark's case, I believe he is saying that there are three controls involved -- one in the power amp, a main volume control in the preamp, and an "attenuator" in the preamp, perhaps providing a few discrete attenuation settings that affect all inputs equally (i.e., the attenuator is "after" the source selection function in the signal path). To be able to utilize the main volume control in the preamp at higher settings, which was his original question, I don't think it is possible to say in general if it would be better to lower the setting of the control in the power amp, or to increase the attenuation setting in the preamp, or both, as there are many design-dependent variables and unknowns involved. In some cases it might not matter at all. Experimentation figures to be the only way to tell.

Regards,
-- Al