Preamp Deal of the Century

Stevem1960, I noticed that you have a Cabernet line stage. My questions are: (1) Is this the latest generation Cabernet; I understand there may have been a design change in the Grange/Cabernet since its introduction, (2) did you you have any experience with Supratek prior to acquiring the Grange and, most importantly, (3) can you enlighten us about its comparative performance with respect to any other line stages including Supratek models.

Fiddler, OK. But I think you understood my point perfectly.

You don't respond there, at the point you dismiss me, but then later add, the "ethereal learning excercise" - which I assume is your actual response, albeit, and disappointingly, placed at a safe distance from your opening response/non-response. (Now, why would you do that...?)

So, let me explain: nothing is "ethereal" (read: irrational, in the context you use it) about recognizing learning curves. Giving someone the very best stuff right off the bat can sometimes lead down the wrong path IN THE LONG RUN. Why? Because the mind requires time to aclimatize to deeper experiences through progressive stimuli.

What does that mean? Well, it is not your ears listening, but your mind, and the way it goes "deeper" is through progressively receptive states, and such states, or their "allowing," necessarily requires a PROGRESSION of experience. What rate of progression is best from person to person is, of course, variant, but to claim that one can jump from SS to SE, or from GE 6551's to Mullard EL34's, or from...well, any area you can name that involves an increase of musicality (as opposed to an increase in accuracy, which the active mind identifies and which people can learn/identify faster) is itself a position that exposes its own lack of knowledge in this area, if not a denial of one's own experience.

I'm not saying that someone can't notice the difference, in quantitative terms and in qualitative terms, but not in qualitative terms TO THE DEGREE THAT MAY BE POSSIBLE without SUFFICIENT EXPERIENCE. Yes, they might know it was better, but the degree that they might be able to appreciate such better-ness might be more accentuated had a progression been employed. I think any experienced person in the hi-end who has consulted on system construction over a wide spectrum of people knows this as a given.

I don't know the gentleman originally referred to above - given his later responses I might, in fact, say go for the Kens - but as a general proposition - which is what we are discussing at this point - the point remains valid.

Bottomline: To deny experience, and that process - your position - is merely a symptom of greed for the next experience; to get there faster and faster. But, that type of greed is the bain of the hi-end; the greed for the experience of beauty through music, those two qualities - greed and beauty - are, experientially, EXCLUSIVE TO ONE ANOTHER; your desire to go faster to get "there" prevents you from seeing what you are missing along the way. When you get there, you don't know where you are, except that you can look down at your WE350B's and be sure, because you just have them, that you are there.

I hope that was clearer.

Mark

Asa, so let me get this straight.

A guy goes to sell his Chevy - so he should buy a Buick before a Cadillac and the Cadillac before a Mercedes and the Mercedes before a Porsche 911 Turbo...so, "his mind, can go way "deeper" through progressively receptive states, and such states, or their "allowing," necessarily requires a PROGRESSION of experience."

That is the biggest crock of baloney I have ever heard. Have you been reading Dianetics!

If we were talking about cloning humans it might be important to take baby steps to learn as much as one could along the way, but tubes ain't a life or death proposition.

Or if one was a tube "seller" it would be important to listen to as many tubes as you could to advise customers, but in your rebuttal here you are simply trying to defend your convoluted logic.

Had you taken the time to read Grannyring's posts more carefully before you decided to interject your "learning" dissertation, you would have realized that Grannyring is not trying to learn how to crawl. Take a look at his associated equipment, "Opus 21 CD player directly into my Parasound Halo JC1's monoblocks...Khorus X11 speakers which go down to 17hz." I don't think he is interested in half-assed tubes for his Supratek!

Once again your advice to Grannyring to seek some sort of "ethereal" (read: "other-worldly"....perfect context!) learning experience borders on the absurd given the context of his system and his early posts.

My recommendations to him were not about, "greed for the next experience; to get there faster and faster". Instead, my reply was based on reading Grannyring's early posts and trying to recommend the best choices of tubes to compliment his associated equipment.

Using your rationale I guess I should suggest to him that when he buys his Porsche 911 Turbo he should run it for a while on regular gas versus premium so he can, quote: " notice the difference, in quantitative terms and in qualitative terms, but not in qualitative terms TO THE DEGREE THAT MAY BE POSSIBLE without SUFFICIENT EXPERIENCE."

Asa, I appreciate your tenacity to defend your clearly untenable position, but let's move on.

Indeed let's move on, so for those of us that are contemplating purchase of a Supratek linestage, can anyone offer any observations on the relative performance among the following: Cabernet (latest production), Sauvignon (latest production), Sauvignon (older model) and Chardonnay. Keep it simple by just assessing the line stages or the line stage performance of their equivalent full-function counterparts (Grange, Cortese and Syrah respectively).

Linkster
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I would suggest that you get either a Grange, Cortese or Syrah rather than a line stage only Supratek pre. The incremental cost of getting a model with the phono stage included is very little compared to the value (many believe the phono stage to be one of the best phono stages available) you get. Having both stages should greatly help your resale / demand (not that you will want to sell it anytime soon). You will also be more than set if you get into vinyl someday.

I have a Cortese that is about a year old and I have not heard the Grange nor I have I heard any of Mick's new iterations that started coming out late last year.

I think that either Steve 1960 or Mick can give you and informed / honest opinion as to how much the newer models have improved the various aspects.

I would also like to hear from anyone that might have heard either the new Cortese or Grange releases and how they stack up against the older models.

It would also be great to hear how much of an improvement that the Grange is over the Cortese on both the line and phono sections.