Replacement for Maggie's?


So I have been thrilled with my magnepan 1.6's to the point that I have upgraded every component to the point that even the power conditioner costs more than the speakers. My question as the headline suggests is that where do I go from here for speakers? I love the Maggie sound for its wonderful depth, life like size, and soundstage. Dislike its lack of bass. The rest of my gear consists of Ayre C5xeMP, Ayre K5xe soon to be MP, Pass Labs X250, APC S15, Grover Huffman XLR's, Signal Cable bi wired speaker cables. Thanks
harri009
If you go with subs, you need at least two and preferably more to approach the in-room bass smoothness of the Maggies. Let me explain:

James M. Kates authored a study published in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society that documented the superior in-room bass smoothness of a fullrange dipole loudspeaker, in comparison with a monopole speaker.

Todd Welti and Earl Geddes (who was my teacher) have established the superior in-room smoothness of multisub systems using three or four thoughtfully placed subs. Basically, multiple distributed bass sources result in significantly smoother in-room bass because their individual dissimilar in-room peak-and-dip patterns average out. This is not entirely unlike the case of having two dipole speakers, wherein each dipole can be modelled as two monopoles in opposite polarity separated by a path length. Two dipoles = four monopoles (two in reverse polarity); four subs = four monopoles (preferably spread apart).

In-room bass smoothness increases proportionally with the number of distributed bass sources. Thus two subs are twice as smooth as one. And four subs are twice as smooth as two. And two dipoles (approximately equivalent to four monopoles, distributed in polarity rather than in location) are about four times as smooth as one monopole sub. That's why most people who try a single sub with Maggies give up on it, and many if not most people who try two subs stick with them (I'm leaving out some details for the sake of simplicity).

In my experience four distributed subs do a very good job of matching the in-room bass smoothness of a pair of dipoles. Of course WAF is not high with a multisub system, so this approach may not be practical in this case, but it's good to be aware of the technique.

Remember, the purpose of going with multiple subs is quality, not quantity. Not only is the bass smoother, it is also more uniform throughout the room, which is nice for anyone not in the sweet spot. Smooth bass = subjectively fast, pitch-correct bass; not-smooth bass = boomy or one-note bass, as the peak or peaks stick out like sore thumbs, unless we turn the subs down until the peaks are subjecively unobtrusive, but now the rest of the bass spectrum is not fully represented. So smooth bass tends to be "fuller" bass because the level of the subs is not dictated by the sore-thumb peaks.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer
This attitude of categorically dismissing subwoofers for fear of integration problems is a bit dated. Sure, it can be a hassle to integrate one or more subs with a system, but it can also be rewarding well beyond the financial investment.

First, you have to pick the right subwoofers. Many of the newest ones are designed to blend and provide foundation for music, not for boom & sizzle of film soundtracks. Subwoofers from JL, Velodyne (esp. the DD and DD+ series), B&W, NHT, and several others are designed with very fast transient response and a wide, linear bandwidth to make blending easier. Many of them have more sophisticated controls to help as well. For example, my Mirage MM8 subs have 0-360 deg. phase control, volume control, and continuously variable crossover frequencies ranging from 50-280 Hz. Others have all that plus room correction and equalization.

Furthermore, a couple of low-cost tools can help. You can get an SPL meter from Radio Shack for $20-30 and the Stereophile test & demo CD for very little. Between the two you can adjust the sub(s) to give you linear bass extension to the limits of the subs themselves.

In my experience, the music-oriented subs have sealed cabinets, some with passive radiators, some without. They tend to have a flat response and a gentle rolloff, making them easier to integrate. Fast transient response is essential as well. If you can afford JL Audio, you will have little problem blending. I heard a pair of their Fathom F212s with a pair of Magnepan 20.1s and the blending was totally seamless. If you could swing a pair of F110s with your current Maggie 1.6s or trade up to 1.7s, you would have a kicking system.

You could also trade up to Mag 1.7s and add some quality but lower cost musical subs, such as a pair of Martin-Logan Dynamo 700s or 1000s, or the NHT B10d or B12d. The B10d is a 12.6" cube and you could tuck one alongside each of your Maggie panels without intruding on the room too much.

Here's another approach: Good minimonitors can disappear and throw a great 3D soundstage, they're small, transparent, and many are very attractive and therefore WAF-friendly. Augmented with one or more subs they can make for a very compelling speaker system. One such I heard a year ago is the B&W PM1 stand-mounted speakers combined with B&W's superb PV1D subwoofer. The speakers, factory stands, and powered sub come right in at your $5K limit.

This is a kick-ass system that sounds like a much more expensive setup, with speed, transparency, musical involvement, dynamics, frequency extension, etc. I often found one or another thing lacking with many B&Ws, usually that elusive sense of musical and emotional involvement, but that's not a problem with these. They're some of the most involving speakers I've heard at any price. I can't imagine that your spouse wouldn't fall in love with them visually, and might even provide the catalyst to share your hobby more.
Duke and Johnny, I'm sure Harri appreciates your input, at least I hope so.

But you may not be familiar with Magnepan's new DWM. It is NOT a subwoofer. I'd call it a supplemental woofer since I believe the response range is 40 to 200 Hz. Their objective it to fill in this range with improved bass and lower mid-range. And being a similar type of dipole mylar driver which can be placed for increased output, it assures similar sonic characteristics with more impact.

BTW Duke, thanks to your description I now can better visualize each DMW as two woofers (although still not a sub-woofer).

Another plus is the ability to cosmetically "hide" it in the room as a light or plant stand.
Pryso: Actually I'm very familiar with the Maggie DWM woofer; I heard it in a demo with mini maggies around 5 years ago. I am very impressed with it and it would be another great alternative to subs. When I mentioned the powered subs I intended that as an alternative, not a contraindication of the DWM. One of the great strengths the DWM brings for blending with panels is that its frequency response goes up to around 7KHz, which means it's not only as fast as the Magnepan bass ribbons; it's almost as fast as the tweeter panels.

Everything I said about the powered subs is also true of the DWMs, plus the easy perfect blend you get with them. Maggie 1.6s or 1.7s should be fine for a wide range of room sizes if they get some room-filling help below 100 Hz, which can be done by the DWM or some small, fast subs.
Well I may potentially have a pair of 3.6's lined up. It's still on the fence from the sellers side until he gets a few things ironed out but I am possibly picking them up next week. As my wife stated "your lucky I love you" I told her that if she absolutely despises them I will resell but her comment was "let's face it once I let them in the house your never selling them, exept to upgrade lol" YEAH FOR LOVING WIVES. It seems to definitely be the best alternative for an upgrade if I enjoy the Maggie sound already. Thank you everyone for the thorough and well thought out responses. There is a lot of information here for anyone in a similar spot.