Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Dear Mosin, I'm assuming that you're talking about Denon's broadcast models. I had a DP-100M which unfortunately went missing on the way to one of the shows. You're correct about the Denons, they don't suffer from the servo artifacts and are extremely accurate and musical but it was closed system so all my listening included Denon's arm. I heard good things about the DP-308 but never came across one.

In the world of mass market consumer products Denon is quite unique in their ability of making very musically satisfying products even in their budget range.

Dear Mosin: +++++ " True, but the rub is in what is measured, and how it is measured. Let's use speed control as an example. I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive due to the inherent tracking error of an idler wheel. I know that sounds impressive, but what does it tell us? The answer is not much, really. Why not? That is because such a measurement is an average. " ++++

yes but then you have to go on the whole TT design about that inertia you are talking about to mantain always the speed accuracy. All these is clear and when that is achieved then we have accuracy all the time it does not matters stylus drag or problems in the elcetric source or whatever.

That kind of accuracy ( between many other things in the TT design. ) helps to have or approach for neutral performance target.

Seems to me that in all audio orders/items the accuracy word is an eveil word a forbidden word when accuracy is the norm that moves all the Universe and moves inside the Mother Nature.

The Earth planet spins around the Sun with absolutely accuracy that with out it the Earth could be burning or a celestial piece of ice. With out accuracy the perfect equilibrum that exist in the Universe fall down and collapse.

With out the kind of accuracy that has the Earth " forces/energies " the equilibrum will collapse too and the sea water ( example ) could goes six meters high.
When a lioness is hunting every single step on that hunting must be accurate to have success and the lioness knows a lot about accuracy and when non-accurate it fail on the hunting ( 60% of the time. ).

As with those examples there are " millions " on every day stages that its behavior foundation is accuracy as the human been organism: our heart or lungs works with exceptional accuracy as any other of our organs/glands.

Accuracy is ne name of the Phisycs Laws or Mathematics. Accuracy is the foundation and prevail in all life stages all over the Universe.

Your example: +++ " I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive " ++++

speaks of accuracy.

Why no one in audio accept or wants to speaks about accuracy?, when is the norm/rule elsewhere.

In a phono cartridge accuracy is showed at different stages: cartridge tracking abilities makes a difference between cartridges because : how accurate the cartridge track the grooves makes those differennces. At other stage we can see how accuracy is part of a cartridge design: how accurate the cartridge can convert the stylus/cantilever movements on MUSIC.

In a phono stage we can have different levels of accuracy in the RIAA eq. due to the deviations in every single phono stage from the RIAA eq. standard.

Why are we looking that our cartridge and tonearm stay matched?, because the quality performance will be more accurate and neutral that if not!!!

I can follow mention hundreds of examples how accuracy lives inside any audio item design, so why not name it wioth the name that belongs to all those: ACCURACY.

Even each one ears/body has different accuracy level.

Neutrality has a hard relationship with accuracy and is way different from that " natural " that Dkarmely mentioned.

In your post: +++ "
"speed accurate" to at least one part per million ... " +++

the word accurate you writed inside quotation marks, why? when you achieved the limit of idler drive mechanism. Why that " fear " to name things as they are!!!!!

IMHO even if you audio item designers ( not all. ) preclude the use of accuracy/neutrality each single step in your designs ( not all. ) carry on the mark of: accuracy/neutrality even if you can't achieve it but you work for it in each single step in a TT design ( or other audio item) because I can't think and make no sense that a TT designer can design the plinth or arm board with out accuracy and dead neutral as targets.

Of course that all of you can follow denyying: ACCURACY AND NEUTRALITY with out no single reason.

Agree with you that today tipical measurements ( I posted ) can't tell us all thye history but today those kind of measurements is all what we have and for good or not that's all what we have and a useful tool along our listener experiences that through many years we developed several abilities and one of that was to be to have and discern more accurately with a better understand what is wrong or what is good more that what we like.
Many os us like wrong or average " things/colorations " but this is not the whole audio subject

I try every single day to learn for I can improve my awareness on accuracy and neutrality.

Of course that any one of you can have way different targets.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Dkarmeli: +++++ " but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard .... " +++++

that only could proves that that design was made it thinking on that kind of market ( just like the SP-10 or Denon DP100 and other TT. ).

Normally those Industry standards are not necessary what we audiophile need. We have different needs that a recording engennerr. With a TT happen the same that with electronics: ask any audiophile here if is using pro-amplifiers or pro-DACS or pro-anything. I have experiences with that kind of pro-industrial design products.

If you see for example FM Acoustics when they decided to go to the high-end market they designed especial electronics for this market, they don't used its pro.industry designs: needs are way different.

I want that remember that were those recording engenners and record labels whom manipulate the microphone signal and were the culprit ( when it happen ) of so many bad recordings.
No, I don't want a celebrated pro-designed audio item: I want an audio item designed by a music lover audiophile that understand our needs.

The Industry standard means only that but not that is the best for us.

I changed in my set up ( other than my BD TTs. ) the SP-10 for a " simple " Denon and JVC TTs.

and this confirm my take:

+++++ " EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order.... " ++++++

Your statement:

++++++ " The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order.... " ++++++

is only an opinion.
Art?, IMHO art is MUSIC, SCULPTURE, PAINTING and the like. Engeneering design at any stage is only that: engeneering design that could have different level of quality and excution.

+++++ " I know enough to know what I like... " ++++++

of course you know but that is not the subject. The subject is more more deeper and a way different concept in audio that that: " I like it ".

I think that we have to analize audio subjects in our stage/scenario with its specific needs.

That an industrial design could works in our " land " not means is the Holly Grail in our " land " but only another option/alternative.

Btw, I think that in all audio subjects we have to analize them with two " charges/weights ": objectiv and subjective and unbiased.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

08-18-13: Lewm
Mosin, Would you therefore dismiss any turntable with a light weight platter (and therefore a rather low moment of inertia) as a "contender", just on that basis alone? And if so, what is your cut-off point for "acceptable" inertia, in terms of platter mass?
The 927 appears to have a "heavy" platter compared to that of other well loved idlers, but not in the league with some of the monster belt-drive platters I have seen, e.g., the Walker lead platter.

This is misrepresenting the 927. Although its platter is only 5kg the 16" diameter and weight distribution results in inertia similar to much much heavier platters ( I think 50kg equivalent has been suggested ). This may be a good thing, attaining high inertia but keeping mass and hence energy storage within the platter low.
The cutting lathes using the much vaunted Technics SP02 DD motor ( which in power and torque and poles is vastly superior to the SP10mk3 motor ) still used this flywheel effect as well with 60lb platters used in the cutting process despite the power and "servo" speed control.
Good turntable designs are very much a 'sum of the parts' - you cannot just ascribe a specific attribute such as what is the minimum platter mass required, because the answer will always be - that depends.... on the bearing, energy storage considerations, platter material, speed control etc etc
It's a bit like - I need to solve a problem, can I borrow Einsteins brain. It doesn't work. Why. His brain doesn't work without the cardiovascular system which you didn't specify in your request. Ok I got the rest now and it still doesn't work. Why. Because he likes a good walk and breakfast to get the juices flowing.

Dear Rauliruegas, obviously you have your way of looking at things audio which is quite different than mine. My equipment bias is purely subjective based on years of hands on experience and that's what I can offer. If you paid me I wouldn't sit in a roomful of audiophiles listening to gladiator, vangelis or any other audiophile paraphernalia du jour comparing analog vs digital but you enjoy that and find it meaningful and conclusive.

The net is full of background information on EMT and testimony from very knowledgeable professionals and hobbyist alike, if that's not enough and you don't find any of them credible this conversation is a waste of our times.

All Huber did was change the chassis of his equipment and jack up the
prices he never changed what goes into the box, its still the same circuit
designs.

I know many engineers who disagree with you including Mosin here. Solid engineering is the foundation the rest of creation is all art. Check his website out, if his attractive designs don't impress you as art we're at another impasse.

Since all judgement, subjective and objective, is limited by the depth ones knowledge its never unbiased!