Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

I love my Lenco, but the common explanation for its excellence, and that of other idlers, i.e., "torque" cannot be the whole story. First, because altho the induction motors on the Garrard 301 and Lenco L75 may look massive, they are in fact very inefficient such that the torque is not as great as one might think, albeit it is greater than that of the motor of a typical weak motor/heavy platter belt drive. Further in the case of the Lenco, the torque delivered to the platter must be limited ultimately by the coefficient of friction between the skinny idler wheel and the underside of the platter. You could put a 500 hp motor in a Lenco, and that idler wheel would leave skid marks on the platter but could still only deliver as much torque to it as friction would allow. The tire on the idler has to be skinny to minimize "scrubbing"; it wants to roll in a straight line whilst propelling the platter in a circular path. Yet, that's one great turntable.

Thuchan, do you use the Mr. Dusch's glass or the original felt platter with your R80?

A couple of people commented that you haven't received any objective responses to your thread. I'm not sure what you were expecting besides another 927 user's experience. I've been at this game for over 30 years and learnt directly from the many bad and some good choices that I made throughout the years. At this point in time my ears and years of hands on experience is my most trusted objective and subjective tool. It doesn't matter what Raul or anyone else thinks important, in this case no measurements trump experience and knowledge.

I can't offer you the why the 927 sounds better in certain respects than basically any esoteric table ever made. What I hear unique in my 927 is the sense of space and ambience which flows and solidity of every note. The other great tables share the expansive tonal qualities of the 927 and like the MS 8000 might even have slightly more detailed bottom end but they lack 927's sonic majesty, which adds to the realism that you get with the 927. The only other tables I've heard with that capability is the American Sound and to some degree I think that AirForce One has that quality now, but I will confirm once I get mine next month.

As far as modern day manufacturers are concerned most don't have the engineering heritage or resources of EMT, Thorens, Micro Seiki, Garrard and whoever designed and produced the Goldmund Reference. Personally I find a 301 or 401 in a properly designed base more palatable and musically satisfying than 90% of the modern mega dollar tables I've heard. Specially some of the ones that have been highly praised and recommended by a certain famous magazine personality!

Dkarmeli, since Thuchan asked why other tables cannot beat the EMT 927 could you list other modern turntables that you like? I have heard Basis Ovation, TW acoustics Blacknight, Brinkmann Balance, SME 30, SME 30/12 and Walker. I bought the SME 30/12.

You also mentioned that the EMT 927 is superior in certain respects. What would you describe its strengths to be and its weaknesses?

Peter, agree! In the beginning of the thread Tbg stated "its now all said in the thread" .How wrong one can be :-)

Dkarmeli, I have both platters, currently using the glass platter which is not made of pure glass, coming with a special rubber layer on top.
I agree completely with you on the difference in sound of the 927 and the MS 8000, couldn`t describe it better.

Regarding the Continuum I have a different opinion than most show session results would lead to. My Criterion running with a Cobra arm and the Goldfinger v2 is a serious contender to the previous mentioned ones. Especially when matched with a perfect aligned Boulder 2008 phono stage (not easy to configurate this machine precisely).

Peterayer, please bear with me with some background before I get to answering your questions, I feel that its an important part of this conversation.

Nothing is perfect and judging any piece of equipment is always in the context of a system that has many variables including the stands, quality of mains and listening space. I know that I haven't addressed all the issues in my music chain so everything in that context. What I have done is move around a lot and tried enough different components in my own systems or those of my clients and friends to know what my music chain is or isn't doing right. My own two main systems have remained more or less the same for the past 10+ years so I'm very familiar with it. So always keep this in mind when people comment on equipment. its never in isolation. But there are certain characteristics that one can pick up if they know what to look for.

I have my standard reference arm/cartridge combination and almost the tables I refer to always have this arm/cartridge combination set up as standard. Unless provided by manufacturer, they all sit on massive vibraplane type lab tables but I don't use air with any of them.

The reference tables mentioned in my threads all perform at exceptionally high levels and don't sonically suffer in any obvious way, I really can't find any weaknesses in them. They don't have what a lot of people call vinyl sound. There's no thickness or ripeness like a Linn nor is it thin hyper detail sound ala Clearaudio, they're very neutral and balanced. Many listeners have expectation of overt character when it comes to lps and are initially thrown off by the neutrality of these players and even more surprising is the actual lp that has no "vinyl sound" like we always thought was there growing up with mass market systems. It takes them some time to get beyond that expectation. This is apart from the analogue vs digital conversation.

To your questions on the EMT 927, I don't hear any shortcomings that I can't attribute to other parts of my system. They're there with every source that I listen to including digital. I love the ergonomics of this table, its just joy to set up and use. For me 927's most unique sonic quality is what I mentioned above. Its the solidity with density and the way it brings forward the space and ambience of the recording. I'm not a reviewer and apologize for not having the vocabulary to express this in audiophile terminology. its not about bass, mids, highs, etc., or anything in isolation, its the total presentation that is very natural and real. That's the best compliment I can give any product. The American Sound has many of the same qualities and perhaps slightly more detailed sound.

Obviously I've only listened to a fraction of what's out there under controlled conditions. Mostly its been the mega buck unobtaniums that I have experience with. On the sane price level I like TW acoustics tables, very little to complain about, they sound excellent and considering the ridiculousness of high end audio these days are relatively good value . Given the availability of 301/401 Garrards and companies like Loricraft or Artisan Fidelity who refurbish and supply very good plinths, they can be considered current production and I highly recommend them. Again, aside from the excellent sound quality they offer value in today's market. I can recommend Loricraft's 501 as an excellent modern day idler, haven't heard Mosin's beauty but its on my radar and to try list. At the stupidly expensive end, I like the Vinci and of course the AirForce One, the upcoming, less expensive AirForce Two should be interesting too. Disclaimer, as a dealer I have vested interest in the AirForce tables.