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2000-2500 USD budget for an integrated amplifier. Do amplifiers sound the same? :)

Hey guys!

My first post here! Great community here!

I recently bought a pair of Klipsch Forte III and I’m thinking about upgrading my current budget amplifier Cambridge CXA60. My budget is around 2500 USD. I hope you guys can give me a few insights. Cheers!


Current setup:

  • Macbook Pro
  • Network streamer + DAC: Chord Mojo + Poly
  • Amplifier: Cambridge CXA60 (60 watt)
  • Speakers: Klipsch Forte III, 99db sensitivity
  • Subwoofer: Klipsch R-115SW
  • The room is pretty small: 4*6 meters (roughly 13*19 ft) but very well acoustically treated (I covered all the power corners with GIK acoustics bass Tritraps and Soffit + complete acoustic treatment on early reflection points

The Cambridge amp sounds nice with the Fortes but I feel like I’m missing out on something. I don’t know what "something" actually, since I haven’t paired the Fortes with anything yet but the Cambridge.

So the crucial question is: should I upgrade?

I’ve been considering integrated amps like the Rotel RA 1592 and the Peachtree nova300.

I know that it’s kind of an overkill to drive the Forte III with respectively 200 watts (Rotel) and 300 watts (Peachtree).

However knowing myself, I might upgrade the whole system (speakers included) in like 4-5 years or so. And it might be nice to have a capable high powered amp around (with lots of power headroom) so I won’t need to spend further capital again on a new amplifier in a few years.

On the other hand, I feel like I’m wasting quite a bit of money buying a powerful integrated amplifier right now. At the end of the day the Cambridge CXA60’s got 60 watt and it is more than sufficient to drive the Forte III.

This leads to another thing that’s bugging me… The sound quality of an amplifier! People like Ethan Wiener argue in a very convincing way that when compared evenly, the sonic differences between amplifiers operated below clipping are below the audible threshold of human hearing.

This guy summarized this view here:

https://jakekuyser.wordpress.com/2016/05/23/do-hi-fi-amplifiers-sound-alike/


Furthermore I’ll most probably have Sonarworks room digital EQ correction toggled on all the time to remove all the equipment unwanted colorations. These colorations might sound nice, but I’m more of a "I want to hear what the artist intended" type of a listener.

(((To me Sonarworks was an eye opener when I first used it to calibrate my Sennheiser HD800.

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2017/8/24/headphone-shootout-sennheiser-hd800-vs-hd800s

It made me think about the extreme amount of the self delusion nature in the audiophile community. Many audiophiles rave about the alleged flat response of the HD800 when there are indisputable peaks at 5,5kHz and 11kHz, plus very very weak bass. Without correction they’re almost annoying to me and they definitely do not deliver what the artist/sound engineers intended. However, these cans are very often just described as extremely revealing, clinical, unforgiving… which eventually led to the claim that the HD800 is picky regarding the amp…)))

Questions:

  1. So considering that I’ll most probably have Sonarworks room digital EQ correction toggled on all the time to remove all the equipment unwanted colorations, do you guys still think that I might be able to get a "better" sound by upgrading the Cambridge to a more powerful amp, like the the Rotel RA 1592 and the Peachtree nova300?
  2. Is it worth to spend 2000-2500 USD more for this? Or should I use this money for a better DAC or a network streamer?

Sorry guys for this long post!

Cheers,

Egoq


egoquaero
egoquaero OP
7 posts
 

Guys, thank you so much again for your help!!!

The audiophile community is really something.... you guys are so supportive and helpful! :D

Well yesterday afternoon I managed to cruise on ebay for a while and there was a new Hegel H190 at 2600 Eur which is quite a steal here in Italy. (in Italy, hifi prices are absurdly high compared to the ones in the US for instance..)

And so… I bought it! :D It was a rushed decision (last piece), but I think it'll keep my upgradetis under check for a while. It's one of the few integrated amps with Airplay and that comes really handy to me. And it should be able to drive with authority most speakers I might buy in the "near" future.

Is anyone familiar with this Hegel H190?

noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
auxinput: 
"The downside is that the Class D "sound" is not for everyone. I am particularly sensitive to the current Class D "lack of high frequency extension and air".   Also, many of the Class D offerings use switching power supply. The ATI AT52x and AT54x models are one of the only nCore offerings that have a full linear power supply"


Hello auxinput,

     I agree with you that the newer class D amps are extremely clean and clear sounding but I'm confused by what you mean when you state the downside is that the class D "sound" is not for everyone.
     Confused because class D's distinguishing characteristic is that it's so neutral, like a straight wire with gain, that it has no "sound" of its own.  If you don't like the "sound" when listening through a good class D amp, it just means you don't like the music it's playing.  How can it have a "sound" when it's just taking the inputted signals, amplifying the volume faithfully without adding or subtracting anything which is verified by extremely low distortion measurements and then passing the boosted signals along to the speakers? 
       It's true that many class D amps use switching power supplies but I don't consider this a negative. All the class D amps I own (D-Sonic, ClassD Audio and Emerald Physics) have full linear power supplies with large toroidal transformers but I've listened to a lot of good class D amps using switching mode power supplies(SMPS) that perform very well and I'm not aware of any amps using them having any issues. 
       Your statement that you're "particularly sensitive to the current Class D "lack of high frequency extension and air" also confuses me.  This is the first time I've heard of this affliction and I hope it's rare and not contagious.   It's definitely and sincerely a shame your affliction prevents you from enjoying the excellent high frequency extension and air that I and so many others enjoy on a daily basis from our good class D amps.  Your misfortune is a lesson to us all to never take our class D amps excellent full frequency range performance for granted, especially the airy and extended treble response.  
     I wish you only the best and hope you have a speedy and complete recovery.

Bless you,
  Tim
auxinput
2,920 posts
 
Well, now that wasn't condescending, was it? Lol.  This lack of high frequency extension and air is a common response to current Class D offerings.   I have even heard this through the extremely expensive BLACK amps.  It even shows up in reviews (just read the review for the ATI Class D amps).  If you cannot hear this then you are one of the lucky few who do not have as sensitive hearing.  But alas, just buy what you love.  Like I said, there are many that love Class D.
audionoobie's avatar
audionoobie
357 posts
 

For $2k - $2.5k you could do a lot worse than the Belles Aria.

If you want to strech your budget a little or buy used, the Rogue Pharoah sounds terrific. Ultimately I wanted tube, so I went with the Cronus Magnum, but it was a tricky decision.

And no, amplifiers DO NOT all sound the same.

Cheers,
Joe

noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
Hello auxinput,

     Yes, I was messing with you just enough to not be offensive but still make my point.  I am a big fan of class D but it's not a blind loyalty.  If there are shortcomings I'm very interested to know about them.
     The frustrating aspect for me is that most of the shortcomings of class D I hear from individuals are typically just anecdotal claims without any logical theories or relevant information to support their claims. If I don't discern their claimed class D deficiency, there's no evidence that others discern the same deficiency and not even a theory explaining why this deficiency exists is offered, then I'm unable to determine whether this is an actual class D deficiency or just a false claim by someone who is unreasonably biased against class D.  I suggest I have no incentive or logical reason to take such anecdotal claims seriously. 
  For example, your claim of class D lacking an extended and airy treble is to me an anecdotal claim that you made without any logical theory or relevant information given to support your claim. I don't detect this claimed deficiency in any of my class D amps I own or those I've listened to, you claim reviewers have noticed and mentioned this same deficiency but cite no references and offer no logical theory attempting to explain why this deficiency exists, then I have difficulty determining whether this is an actual class D deficiency or just a false claim.  I again suggest I have no incentive or logical reason to take the claim, that class D lacks an extended and airy treble response, seriously.  
     Put more simply, I'm always going to trust my own perceptions of what I hear or don't hear over anecdotal claims from others.  The truth is that if I don't perceive my class D amps as having a lack of an extended and airy treble, then by definition I only perceive an extended and airy treble.
     Of course, I realize it's a possibility that you and some others could be perceiving class D treble as not extended and airy while I and some others perceive class D treble as very extended and airy due to some currently unknown reasons that could be the result of the dynamics of class D technology itself or the differences between how individuals perceive class D reproduced sound or even some combination of the two.       If this is the case, then you're right that some individuals are just lucky.  Well, I think this is a diplomatic way to end our discussion.  Hopefully, meaningful discoveries will be made on this subject in the near future.

     In the meantime I agree with you that we should just buy what we love.

Tim
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