Eddy Driessen is one of the ''Dutch grandmastrs'' known by
his ''Pluto'' TT's and tonearms. I am not the right person to
comment on TT's designs but his ''form follows function''
TT's looks to me to satisfy most conditions mentioned in this thread.
A Copernican View of the Turntable System
Once again this site rejects my long posting so I need to post it via this link to my 'Systems' page
HERE
HERE
1,023 responses Add your response
This would appear to show that the Herzan is effectively modifying the music signal playback due to the vibrations of the stylus by imparting a corrective response that has taken into account stylus vibration generated into the platter/TT. Not so.... The added vibrations with music playing is purely Airborne Sound Transmission. HERE is a readout with the Isolation ’OFF’ a record playing but the sound MUTE. And HERE is a readout with the Isolation ’ON’ a record playing and the sound MUTE. |
Interesting thoughts Dover.... Watch this VIDEO on the Doehmann Helix 1 turntable when Mark Doehmann (who was head designer at Continuum for the Caliburn and Criterion turntables and also the Cobra and Copperhead tonearms) comes in to explain it (past the halfway mark). Apart from the other interesting design attributes.....the aluminium that you think is the platter.....is actually a 'shield' against Air-Borne Sound Transmission and the platter sits behind it....🤗 Mark knows his 'onions'...... |
Thanks Shane..... Not only 'cool'....the Herzan is a real listening experience for vinyl lovers. I dealt with Reid Whitney directly at Herzan in the States. He really knows his stuff. Tim Rather then handles the production and delivery. I paid what I had to plus 'extra' for a special larger top-plate (I didn't want to run out of room if I needed to mount some other 12" arms in the future) plus FedEx Delivery......it took 3 days from the factory for me to have it 👍 This is definitely not a cheap option Shane.... Thuchan is about to trial a cheaper version in Germany from Accurion... Will be interesting to hear his thoughts..... |
I also got me TS-150 directly from Herzan dealing with Tim -- a very easy process. I have posted the interference readouts from my installation as part of my system description (https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5707#&gid=1&pid=31) You can see from the traces that in my room I get a lot more background seismic activity than Halcro does. This is a wall shelf installation so that may explain why the main activity is in the vertical dimension. The time base for the scan is 165mS so the frequency of the activity is 10-12 Hz or so -- it strikes me that as this is close to the resonant frequency of arm/cartridge combinations it may be that eliminating this may be one of the reasons the effect of these active platforms is so profound.You can also see that in my setup I get some motor noise transmitted into the stand which the TS-150 does a good job of removing. My TT (EAR DiscMaster) is designed to prevent this noise making it into the platter (via a decoupled tension bearing and the give in the toothed belt) but it should help to also not have noise build up in the stand itself Anyway just wanted to add my voice to back up what @halcro says about the benefits of addressing the record player as a system and working from the ground up |
Dohmann may know his onions, but that "shield" would seem to offer no more isolation than is seen with the typical Denon, Victor, Technics, etc, designs that also shield the platter by sinking it down low, nearly level with the surface of the plinth. It may be that for a belt-drive, such an elevated highly visible shield is needed to accommodate the need for the belt to circumscribe the platter proper. |
The Herzan has been integrated in my system for 6 months now, and not only is it the final 'piece' of the jigsaw for the 'Copernican' puzzle.....but it singularly is the most significant contributor to the elimination of 'distortions' and the elevation of sound quality that I have experienced in 40 years of audio.That is because it is effectively acting as the plinth. The arm is now rigidly coupled to the platter, which is as it should be. |
I'll jump in to comment only on an experience with air-borne interference with my turntable. My listening room has a 5' wide alcove along one sidewall. Within that I constructed two full width shelves to place source components. This accommodates freestanding record storage boxes underneath. Initially I placed my turntable at the far right end of the top shelf. Unconsidered at first was the result of the arm/cartridge being very near a corner as it's arc traced a record. One day I had reason to lean over the platter area while music was playing. I was startled to hear the amount of low frequency build-up in that corner. Considering those air-borne vibrations were affecting my vinyl performance, I moved the turntable toward the left hand end of the shelf. Of course the table was still the same distance from the sidewall, but being close to the mid-point of the 5' shelf, the arm/cartridge now operated some distance from either corner. The result was obvious with any music played at moderate to moderately high levels. It was overall much "cleaner", with greatly improved definition and reduce sonic smearing. Just as we want to avoid corner placement for nearly all loudspeakers, I believe all component placements should follow the same guideline for best performance. And hey, it was free! |
Hi Ralph, I've noticed that both you and J.Carr have recently 'transferred' over to 'The Dark Side' by adopting the new Technics SL1200 DD turntable over your previously loved belt-drives. The Empire in your case and the Final Labs and big Micro Seiki in Jonathan's. Can you reveal why you have changed, and what the Technics does that the Empire doesn't? Regards Henry |
Hi Folkfreak, We must be related..... Palladian cartridge, Herzan.....😁 I trust you're still enjoying the Palladian..? Your supporting shelf for the turntable is most unusual.... I can understand the reasoning behind it (assuming you have springy floorboards)....but perhaps you swapped one problem for another..? Suspension systems (as I know from engineering) are designed to MOVE...😱 Not only side to side, but also up and down depending on the details. I can well understand how the readouts are more severe than in my situation. The Herzan in your case must really be earning its keep....👍 On the positive side, the differences when the isolation is 'ON' compared to 'OFF' must be night and day...? Are you able to describe the effects you are hearing? Regards Henry |
@halcro I've noticed that both you and J.Carr have recently 'transferred' over to 'The Dark Side' by adopting the new Technics SL1200 DD turntable over your previously loved belt-drives.Halcro, As far as I know JCarr was using a Marantz TT1000 DD as a daily runner. His Final Audio TT has been in storage - last I heard he was wanting to build a new motor drive system because he found the Final too complicated due to the fact that the Final system requires an external power amplifier to drive the motor. Effectively you have a preamp (sine/cosine wave generator), power amp, interconnects and speaker cables plus external motor to drive the 26kg platter. Even worse, you can hear substandard amplifiers and cabling as clear as a bell which means you are up for decent power amp and cables plus the TT & controller. I use an Onix OA60 amplifier ( sounded much better than the Rowland power amp I previously used to drive the TT ) and all MIT cabling in my Final TT set up. Needless to say the Final Audio Research TT is not for minimalists. |
As far as I know JCarr was using a Marantz TT1000 DD as a daily runner. You're right Dover... My TT-1000 by itself has a little less mass in the platter system than stock (I needed to shave down the top of the platter to get a flat surface for the graphite mat to bond onto). Add the center clamp, and the net weight ends up pretty close to stock - not enough to warrant readjusting the servo gain. He goes on.... Dover, you have a Final Audio? So do I (grin). My unit predates the Takai-era Parthenon, but is new enough to have the SPZ plinth rather than the original granite. It also has the bi-phase motor controller. FWIW, Kitamura's preferred material for mat and clamp was chrome copper rather than gun-metal. And then more.... Even on my Micro-Seiki SZ-1S, which has a 28kg machined stainless-steel platter and integral vacuum clamp as well as air bearings for the platter and motor/flywheel, I ended up keeping the air bearings engaged and defeating the vacuum clamp (although I did prefer to insert a mat between LP and platter surface). Impressive collection... That Micro is higher up the scale than the SX/RX-8000 I believe... http://www.thevintageknob.org/micro_seiki-SZ-1.html But I wonder if he's gone over to the new Technics SL1200 in place of the Marantz...or is he a 'paid' mouthpiece......? |
Halcro, As far as I know JCarr was using a Marantz TT1000 DD as a daily runner. That is correct. There was a TT1000 for sale on ebay a few years back for local pickup only very close to me. He wanted a second one. I was going to pick it up for JCarr and give it to the AU Lyra importer to ship to Jon in Japan. LOL - they were outbid on ebay by someone else. All his other turntables are in storage. cheers |
@halcro yes, we do share similar tastes in some regards the Grand Prix Audio Brooklands shelf is not in any way springy or flexible -- once correctly installed and locked down it is completely rigid. The only compliance on the design is in the typical GPA sorbothane discs that sit under the shelf and with the Herzan I have defeated these by simply overloading them. Furthermore in my current installation the shelf is not actually attached to the wall but is instead mounted on three dedicated studs that are not connected to the drywall, each stud is in turn damped by an ASC stud damper. Herzan were concerned that this would be an installation that fought against the active isolation but I have had no issues. The main problem the active platform addresses is seismic disturbance from construction (plus traffic and quake of course) there are six active multi story construction sites within a two block radius of my house and the whole area is reclaimed wetland so not the most secure of foundations. All of my stands and my speakers are seismically isolated via roller ball type footers or Townshend podia The effect of active isolation is to make the table sound more stable and secure. Peaks no longer overload, bass seems diminished but is in fact cleaner, lower and more detailed. Frankly all of the euphonic (and nice to listen too) distortions of LP playback are significantly reduced and my LPs sound much more like my digital system but with all the air, emotion and interior dynamics that analog always excelled at. The improvement is actually most obvious with mono recordings which become even more dynamic and clear. I would certainly put the impact of adding active isolation above either an arm or cartridge upgrade, it would be interesting to see if a sub $10k analog rig on a Herzan outperformed a $20k one without it, I suspect it would The Palladian is still performing exceptionally, I used to have issues with stylus muck build up but since getting an ultrasonic cleaner this is a problem I no longer have. I’m still waiting on a new arm board from EAR so I can drop the arm another .5mm which I think will be ideal but other than that no concerns. Where do you have yours riding relative to horizontal? At present I’m a hair tail up which is as low as my arm can go with the sub board I currently have to use |
@halcro Hi Ralph, Actually I still run the Atma-Sphere model 208 (which looks for all the world like an Empire 208 but uses an entirely different plinth). However I also have a lot of respect for the Technics SL-1200G. We had one here in the shop recently; a customer wanted to install a 12" Triplanar on it and wanted to know if that was possible. It was. I took the machine entirely apart and since I've had a lot of experience servicing consumer electronics in the last 45 years, I was very familier with the older SL-1200s. The new machine looks the part, but is an entirely new design with many improvements. One improvement that impressed me was how much attention was paid to rigidity of the plinth, while at the same time applying five different damping systems! In addition, the speed stability is one of the very best in the world, being second to only the SP-10MkIII. Its a very impressive machine and anyone serious about high end audio and wanting a turntable should consider it. |
Dear @downunder : The JC reference always was the SZ-1, he is in love with Micro Seiki. This TT more than a piece of enginnering " art " is a piece of machined " art ". Micro Seiki is not my " cup of tea ", to many design problems with. Taking in count the JC prefrence for the MS designs is not " weird " that he is testing the mediocrity of the TT1000 that’s a MS design and builded by MS not Marantz. There are nothing that can tell us TT1000 is a must to have especially that Marantz choosed to use glass on the platter and even in the plinth, glass is way way resonant material and " forbidden " to use it in a TT. In the other side and even that’s a DD its measures are really poor but you can pull the trigger for it. Is out of my mind JC choose ( ? ) in the Marantz and if he modified other than use the carbon fiber mat that a little less resonant than the glass but resonant at the end. Yes, JC priorities/targets are different from the ones of some of us. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear Halcro, what I learned is that taking an active isolation vibration platform, Herzan or Accurion, the latter one is not really cheap, may establish an even less nervous and more relaxed sound stage. As I showed on my blog it is quite an investment but you will get back a lot. Great discussion and philosophy! |
Since i am not an engineer, the complexities of plinth and motor sub-assemblies and suspensions are largely lost on me. But I do believe that the key of vinyl is looking upon the cantilever stylus-groove contact as being analogous to a tire of a car being under load and being steered in a rough rut in a road. Allowing that tire to follow and negotiate the rut with maximum contact with the rough area in the rut without careening side to side or bouncing out is the goal. Constant speed is next. Freedom from extraneous noise is next. Pretty simple stuff. We hobbyists sweat over turntable design and set-up because it is there to be sweated over. By that, I refer to the fact that loudspeakers are the opposite of phono cartridges in terms of being transducers but all of the compromises and settings have been pre-set for us by the manufacturer-other than placement-so we don't think about them much. For every audiophile that has given up on vinyl as obsolete, I point to their choice of loudspeaker and say, "perfect sound forever, huh?". That is before we even start with their choice of filtering algorithm and the compromises implicit in them. |
Folkfreak, The Palladian is still performing exceptionally, I used to have issues with stylus muck build up but since getting an ultrasonic cleaner this is a problem I no longer have. I’m still waiting on a new arm board from EAR so I can drop the arm another .5mm which I think will be ideal but other than that no concerns. Where do you have yours riding relative to horizontal? At present I’m a hair tail up which is as low as my arm can go with the sub board I currently have to use I have my Palladian running a smidgen LOWER than parallel (at the pivot) so I think you may well find a further improvement when you receive your new armboard....? Good luck.. |
Dear Halcro, Agreed Thuchan.... The effects on the upper frequencies are the most revealing I feel. All the records I have where the high-frequencies become brittle or screechy as the volume increases are now listenable and (mostly) enjoyable. I continue to enjoy your Blog Audiocirc ..... Wonderful equipment and comments. Keep up the good work 👍 |
