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Adjusting speaker positioning. What, if anything, to expect?


I am going to adjust my Magico A3’s positioning a little bit to try to optimize their performance and the listening experience. Due to the logistics of the room they’re in, there’s only a limited amount I can move them. I’ll describe the room and what I can do within those limitations. I’m wondering what improvement I might be able to achieve with adjusting positioning.

The room is approximately 14’ x 22’. There is a high vaulted ceiling. about 15’ at it’s peak centered in the room on its horizontal axis. Picture how kindergarten child draws a house. That’s the shape of a cross section of the room and vaulted ceiling.. The speakers are located about 8’ apart centered on the long wall. The front of the A3’s are only out 22" from the wall, the rear of the speakers only 9" from the wall. That can’t be helped. The prime listening position is on a couch about 10’ out from and facing the same wall, also centered. The components are on shelves centered and built into the same long wall the speakers are on. There are some other furnishings, and books above built-in cabinets, line most of the other three walls.

I can move the speakers about a foot farther apart or closer together, and I can change their toe-in. What changes, if any, might I be expecting or hope to achieve moving the speakers within these limited parameters? Could the sound-stage be affected? I’m not sure what the sound-stage should be like anyway. Should it extend to the left or right outside the speakers, or be mainly between the speakers? Right now depending on the recording the vocals and instruments are usually between or no further apart than the actual speakers. Could the treble, midrange, or bass response be augmented or diminished depending on positioning? Are there any other factors that may be affected by positioning alone? Thank you for any guidance and please feel free to ask any questions. Thanks,

Mike
skyscraper
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Yes skyscraper you are correct. With most modern studio recordings the image is based on what the mastering engineer thinks everyone wants to hear by virtue of his own ability to mix correctly and the quality of the system he is using to do this, all of which is questionable. Live recordings can be much more useful in evaluating a system. We all have our favorite records when it comes to imaging. We also know how favorite studio recordings image and know what to expect if a system is set up correctly.
As far as image size is concerned it depends on the type of speaker. Dynamic speakers create a small sound stage as if you are sitting in the back. Linear Arrays or Line source speaker throw a larger stage as if you are sitting up front. There are advocates of both types. A good system is capable of imaging beyond the speakers with the right recording. 
Using an out of phase signal to set up speakers seems a bit odd to me but hey, what do I know. I use a computer, a microphone and an impulse testing program to adjust the speakers in time, phase and frequency response. This does not negate the use of appropriate acoustic treatments and intelligent speaker location. I adhere to the symmetry concept and designed my media room accordingly. But, having measured quite a few speakers this does not guarantee the best imaging or symmetrical performance. Even the best manufacturers are not capable of making two speakers perform exactly the same. There are always some differences in frequency response. This is were a room control system comes into play. It can make both channels virtually identical which results in the best imaging.  
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,098 posts
 
Even the best manufacturers are not capable of making two speakers perform exactly the same. There are always some differences in frequency response. This is were a room control system comes into play. It can make both channels virtually identical which results in the best imaging.  
Thanks very astute observation.... My best mijostyn
skyscraper OP
830 posts
 
Morningstaraudio, you're lucky to have one of those laser measuring devices I was thinking how nice it would be to have one this morning as I was trying to accurately aim the speakers so they would both point to the exact same spot on wall the behind couch.

Geoffkait. It might be a good starting point though to make adjustment from,
to follow with using the XLO to make adjustments as needed to suit the room's layout and furnishings. My listening room, designed in a Federal style, is symmetrical, which should lend itself to both approaches readily enough I would think. We'll see soon enough. 

Larry, I've achieved a bit of a similar effect this morning, by more exactly measuring the toe in and trying to aim it directly at my head in the center listening location, and then next somewhat behind it, while moving the speakers closer together from eight feet on center to seven feet.. The sound on Miles Davis' "Seven Steps to Heaven" seemed better focused and maybe the bass tighter. It's too soon to tell though without a lot more listening and adjusting, not to mention using the test record Geoff has recommended.

Mijostyn, I'll try listening to some live recordings while setting things up. It's interesting how different recording engineers approaches to mixing and maybe remastering create different soundstages,

For instance listening to "Gerry Mulligan meets Ben Webster" earlier today, It was clear some instruments were located center stage in places between the speakers. But Ben Webter's tenor sax was clearly emanating from the right speaker and Gerry Mulligan's baritone sax clearly coming out of the left. Who knows how this was originally recorded and mixed sixty years ago though?

Sounds like you've had some practice setting up systems with some more sophisticated techniques than I'm likely to muster. You're welcome to come over and give it a shot.

Mike




glupson
7,842 posts
 
If you think about it in the way recordings are made, you may really be chasing your tail trying to achieve what you think should be there. One recording is great and then another one may be a little more "narrow" than what you may think it should be. In that case, geoffkait’s approach of only one "source material" may really make the most sense.

Also, and I hate to reference geoffkait again, when you set it up to what you think is satisfactory, try moving speakers closer. You may be surprised. For some reason, without going into poetic descriptions, I find it somehow better. In short, as geoffkait tends to say, most of the speakers should be placed closer together rather than further apart. Of course, you be the judge, but it may be worth trying.

Also, how can you resist buying this toy? Just imagine what you can measure? You may be too busy measuring everything around and forget to set the speakers up.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-Laser-Distance-Measurer-DW055E/301000618?mtc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-...
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,098 posts
 
My salutation glupson…. 

I think if you and geoffkait says the same thing, perhaps the second return of J.C. is near or perhaps you are right....I will opt for the second possibility... :)
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