I would be curious to hear Victor's or Joseph's view on popping the top as well. Obviously, removing the top would be to eliminate vibrations, so why wasn't this issue looked at by Joseph in his initial design? Wouldn't taping some anti-vibration( dampening) material on key locations of the inside of the top be accomplishing the same result as removing the top? I haven't yet taken the time to try mine with the top off. |
Grannyring, if your Amperex are NOS, then they might need at least 24-48 hours to break-in. I'm anxious to hear your impressions as well. |
Hey Bill! Congrats on finding the tubes that sound best for you. Enjoy the preamp. |
Here's one thread that gives some info. Do a search under "phase inversion" or "phase". Other words to look at are "inverse polarity", "polarity" and "reverse polarity"
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1143621906&read&keyw&zzphase=inversion |
http://www.soniccraft.com/products/damping/blackhole5.htm
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LA45,
Are you waiting for the preamp to arrive or the break-in to arrive? The preamp as received from Joseph takes about 48 hours to smooth out. It will gradually improve over the next few days. I recommend that before you start looking into tweaks for the preamp, just listen to and ejoy it for a while as is. The better you understand how it sounds in your system, the more you'll appreciate the minor tweaks available for it. I would also recommend that you tweak your room acoustics, and make sure that you have the best interconnects and power cords which will make bigger improvements for your system vs. tweaking Joseph's preamp. The tweaks which you can do to the preamp such as tube rolling and iec subs,IMHO, will be subtle compared to other things in your sound room. Have fun, though with your tweaking, but don't go crazy with it and miss out on just enjoying the music from your system. |
I am currently using a McCormack UDP-1 universal player and mostly listening to my Joseph Chow modified Citation Eighteen tuner. I'm presently experimenting with power cords on my monoblocks. I will be doing an interesting tweak on the preamp soon, so I'll let everyone in when it is finished. Joseph has approved of this experimental tweak, so it will be an interesting experiment. Stay tuned for updates. |
I'll let you all in on the tweak I'm going to do. It's not really a secret. I am going to try the V-Cap OIMP, oil-impregnated cap in place of the upgrade Hovlands that Joseph puts in as output caps in his upgrades. Out of curiosity, I asked Joseph if he had tried it and due to long break-in periods and cost, Joseph didn't have a chance to evaluate it, so I asked him if I could give it a try. He gave me the go ahead. If the cap seems that it has potential or proves overall superiority to the Hovland( by the way, a very nice sounding cap in Joseph's circuitry) Joseph could consider it as another upgrade option. Being a tweaker and curious about the V-cap's sonics, I couldn't resist hearing it in the preamp. I just ordered the V-Caps, so it will be a few days before I receive them and the caps will need an additional 200 hours of break-in to realize their potential. I'll give time to time impressions on this thread. http://www.v-cap.com/oilcapacitors.html |
Joe, if your NOS Siemens tubes are indeed new, you'll need to allow another 24 hrs. or so for the new tubes to settle in. Please let us know what your impressions are. |
Joe, what I heard, especially when putting in the Siemens CCa tubes in location 1 & 3 was a purer tonality of instruments. Pianos took on a more natural timber, with improved dynamics. Soundstage opened up and instrument placement seemed more exact. All instruments and human vocals just took on a more natural "aliveness" sound. The preamp is so precise that changing interconnects and power cords are easily discernable for fine-tuning the sound to please your ears. You are right, though, to listen to recordings that you are most intimate with to better gauge the differences. |
I'm not sure if any TP-2.0 owner or potential owner is interested, but Joseph has just completed a prototype of a phono preamplifier. He and Victor are in the process of evaluating. That's all I know at this point. Contact Victor or Joseph for more details. |
Huh? What Mk II? What changes did Joseph make without telling the rest of us? |
Thanks Rx8man. I was getting a little nervous there. I have a feeling that unless technology dramatically advances in key areas, Joseph won't be building preamps that go through continous upgrades. |
Joe, I think you meant to say Victor, not Vincent, right? |
Well,Joe, to my knowledge, you are the first to mention this new version of Joseph's preamp. I have been in frequent contact with Victor and the only mention of a preamp is a phono unit that is still in the evaluation stage. Perhaps this is the new preamp that you mention. As you know, the current TP 2.0 versions are all line stages only, so naturally one with a phono would be higher priced. If the phono is offered as a separate phono-only, then this would be a new product for all with line stages who want to expand to phono as well. I also would imagine that if there are any upgrades available that would enhance the sound of the current preamps, Victor would make an announcement and include it in their web site. I would also assume that perhaps current owners would possibly have an opportunity for upgrades before any new versions were announced to the general public. Joseph and Victor are both very fair in dealing with their current customer base. |
By the way, Joe. How are those Siemens CCa tubes sounding at this stage of evaluating? |
I just got an e-mail from Victor explaining the new preamp. It will be a combo linestage/phono preamp, available sometime in May. It will also be available as an add-on module for the current TP 2.0 users or as a separate phono only. Just as I had imagined. I don't think there is pricing yet. So, not to worry, current preamp owners. Joseph is simply expanding his "Horizons"; pun intended. |
Yes, Rgd, I have the same thought. I just e-mailed Victor about this and am waiting for a reply. |
Welcome, Rhanson to the TP-2.0 preamp club. I just received a detailed explanation regarding the phase from Victor. I asked him if I could post the explanation on this thread and am awaiting his reply. I just reversed my speaker leads and the sound became out of phase, so the standard hook-up is in phase for my system. It might be different for others. Victor's explanation talks about this issue. Don't worry, because I just did a detailed search on the threads discussing phase and there is a lot of information. I'll find the thread that helped me a lot in understanding this phenomena. If you read the posts, you'll see that a lot of studios record the songs out of phase. |
Joe, try the Amperex out. I'm anxious to hear your impressions. Also, Victor gave me the go ahead to post his e-mail regarding phase:
Hello Sherod,
Many preamps and many amps reverse the polarity. This becomes a problem only when the preamp does, as Joseph's does, and the amp does not. This issue surfaced only recently when Cedar got a new amp and unlike his previous one, it did not reverse polarity. Joseph had never mentioned this matter to me before or I would have added it to the owner's manual and the specs.. I will be sending out a notice to all past customers on this matter when Joseph returns and sends me all their email addresses..
Sometimes the amp manufacturer indicates this fact and sometimes the manufacturer does not. I recently revised the owner's manual to note this fact and will add it to the specs in the ads shortly.
The simplest way to tell is to reverse the polarity of your two speakers. When a system is out of phase, the sound will appear a little flat; imaging will also wander rather than snap into focus. On most quality systems, it is not hard to tell. a minute's listening will disclose whether you are in or out of phase.
I suggest that you reverse the polarity of your speaker leads and see what happens: if the sound seems dull and less alive and imaging wanders or is ill-defined, then you are out of phase.
Best regards,
Victor |
Joe, if you paid a premium for those Cca's, send them back to the dealer for a replacement or refund. I have read that tube dampers can sometimes over-damp a system. |
Joe, just a brief while back I was very "green" about tubes. I learned quite a bit about them in general from reading through the Tube Asylum on the Audio Asylum website. I still go through some of these threads from time to time to refresh my memory. One of the things I found out about tubes is that the best ones, which are usually NOS( but not all) are like a seasoning to the circuitry. It's amazing how so many audiophiles have so many different preferences in sound. Bottom line is what sounds best to you. There is no one best particular tube. IMHO |
Ahh, the joy and expense of tube rolling... |
Lou,
Can you explain what a semi-cryo'd treatment is? |
I am leery of the freezer treatment of anything. Freezing is 32 degrees F. I don't know if there is scientific evidence that this temperature is sufficient to change the molecular structure of the item. I know there is evidence of true cryo treatment making changes on a molecular level, but true cryo is substantially lower than standard freezing. There are a couple of threads regarding freezing and double- freezing, wrapping in a plastic bag, etc. but it all seemed ludicrous to me. Maybe freezing does work, but I'm not comfortable enough with trying it out just yet. I have other tweaks in mind that to me would make a bigger difference, in general. YMMV |
Hi guys. I don't know if eveyone remembers but about a week ago, I replaced Joseph's upgraded Hovland output caps with the V-cap OIMP caps and after 150 hours of break-in my jaw is still on the floor. I will post a little mini-review when they reach their 300 hour or so final break-in. I can, in the meantime, confidently state, IMHO, that after 96 hours, the V-caps handily surpassed the Hovland by many orders of magnitude. I have e-mailed Victor to order a pair for he and Joseph's evaluation, so when and if this happens, you might want to get some more opinions, but at this juncture, I feel that Chris Ven Haus has developed a revelatory cap that turns Joseph's already amazing bang-for-your-buck preamp into a truly world class preamp of immense musicality. I am drawn now into the music more than ever before and am hearing things that surpass what any tweak or component that I've ever added to my system. I am truly amazed at the differences. Stay tuned for a final update in about a week or so. |
Regarding "Joe's Tube Lore", this is one man's opinion, of tubes in his system, in one component(his dac, I believe), so take his recommendations as a " your mileage might vary" standpoint. Here's hoping that you'll all find the one tube that sounds best in your preamp. |
What scares me is what other audiophiles considering trying Joseph's preamp are thinking about all these tweaks the current users are doing to the preamp. I would probably be asking, " If Joseph's preamp is a world beater in stock form, why in the world would you do anything to try to improve on it?" Well, the only tweaks I have done to mine and both were approved by Joseph, are to upgrade the two main tubes and now the experimenting with the V-caps in the outputs. My answer to this is that both are reasonable tweaks that any audiophile worth his salt would consider doing if it meant extracting that last nth-degree of subtle nuances from an already amazing preamp. No Trolls wanted on this thread. |
Hello fellow TP 2.0 preamp owners. Just a word of advise regarding the V-Cap OIMP capacitors. Several people have e-mailed me regarding interest in this cap to put in the outputs of their preamps. If you have never soldered anything or done any of this type of tinkering with electronics, I highly recommend that you either take your preamp to a local and reputable service tech to put these caps in for you or pay the shipping to have Joseph do it for you. There is very high voltage in the preamp and unless you follow detailed instructions provided by Joseph to perform while installing the caps, you could either injure yourself or do damage to the preamp and/or tubes. I was able to successfully remove the Hovland caps and replace them with the V-caps, but I was very careful in how I did the procedure. It took me about 1 1/2 hours to finish the installation, but only because I took my time, rested in between, and was over-cautious. If I had more experience and wasn't so anal about things, I probably could have done it in half the time. At 9:00 P.M. this evening, MST, I will have 216 hours on these V-caps. My last impression on them was at approx. the 150 hr. mark and at this point I am still, if not more than, enthusiastic about these V-caps. I have read the beta-tester's reports, and some claim that up to 300 hours and even beyond, the sound will continue to improve. The total I paid for the pair of caps from VH Audio was $113.44, which included UPS shipping. This seems a lot for two capacitors, but as this cost was less than what any of my interconnects or power cables cost me, I feel that they were a bargain. Also, cap value for your preamp is different depending on what model of the TP 2.0 you have. Joseph is in Taiwan for business/personal reasons and won't be back home until March 25th, at which time Victor told me that he had something like 15 tuners waiting for him to do his modifications on, so he's going to be a busy man for a while. I expect that on Joseph's return, he will order a few of the V-Caps to do some critical listening for himself. Assuming Joseph gives these caps his blessing, you might want to wait until he gives his opinion. In the meantime, the Hovland caps are extremely musical and make the preamp a joy to listen through. To my ears, however, the V-caps just allow more musical information to pass through to give you an even higher level of listening bliss. Stay tuned for more updates.
P.S. As a side note, Rx8man has come up with a neat little tweak of floating the main circuit board which gives the preamp even better isolation and should improve on the sound. The tweak is very inexpensive, involving four special screws and a couple of special washers and voila, you have a "floating" circuit board. Rx8man has already installed this tweak and he says it makes a nice improvement. I am going to acquire the floating kit and try this tweak out next week. But first, I want to give the V-Caps their full burn-in and final evaluation before I make any other changes. I've learned the hard way to not change horses in the middle of the stream. Happy listening to all ! |
Joe, you might check with Mauimods and see if they have any experience with using the V-caps in your dac. There might be a key location where a V-cap will work wonders. |
Joe, I am glad to hear that your daughter is all right. She is top priority. |
Hi folks. I thought I'd give you a little capsule update on my cap upgrade experiment. I'm trying to be low-key and subtle on this experiment, because I don't want anyone to think that the preamp as is from Joseph with the Hovland caps is some type of sacrificing of musical enjoyment. It is not. Joseph has made a great preamp that is a genuine bargain, regardless of which version you choose. Joseph is out of the country right now and I don't want him to feel that we few tweakers of his preamp are trying to re-think, so to speak, his design. I just had to try this new V-cap from VH Audio because I had read so many wonderful testimonials about it, both from highly revered modifiers and manufacturers as well as from amateur tweakers like myself. The OIMP V-caps have about 400 hours on them now so they should be fully burned in, if not 90% or better. To my ears the V-caps are still better than the Hovlands. They just pass more information in all regards. But after continuing my evaluations using a wide variety of music that I'm very familiar with as well as different source components, I'm realizing now that the V-cap OIMP's have a very slightly added warmth and roundness, if you will, to the sonic portrait. This is not a bad trait or signature. Even with this signature, I would probably still live with it in my preamp as opposed to the Hovland simply because it lets through more information in a satisfying way for my tastes. So I contacted the designer of the V-cap, Chris, and he suggested that I try bypassing the OIMP with a much smaller V-cap teflon to see if the combination would give me more of a less warm and round texture to the sound. I then had a few e-mail exchanges with a very knowledgeable modifier, Bill Baker of response Audio, and he too recommended that I bypass the OIMP's with a smaller V-cap teflon, recommending a .10 uf value to blend with the 4.0 uf value of the OIMP. I bit the bullet and paid the extra $100.00 for the V-cap teflon bypass caps( I now have a little over $200.00 invested in this cap experiment replacement. A little high probably for the budget conscious, I know) but being a perfectionist, I just had to try this final tweak). I installed the bypass caps last night. It took much less time than the OIMP as I just piggy-backed the bypass to the OIMP and then carefully tied down all caps to fit tightly and securely to prevent microphonics. I have had it now playing overnight and the sound does indeed have better neutrality( read a little less warmth) but doesn't sound as good as the OIMP's by themselves. I'm attributing this to the fact that the teflons need at least 200 hours of burn-in before they really open up and show their capabilities. I have been told and read that the teflons need @ 400+ hours to achieve 95% of their attributes. So I probably have another two weeks before I can make a realistic evaluation to report. In the meantime, fellow TP 2.0 owners. Just let ole Sherod be the guinea pig for the time being and you rest easy enjoying your preamp as is. Joseph will be back in the good old USA next week and Victor told me that Joseph was going to order some V-caps to do his own experimenting, so I suggest you all wait until the Master, Mr. Chow, gives you his opinions. I don't want to create a monster here by thinking that everyone should go out and replace your caps. Please be patient and let the evaluations unfold and then make your decisions. Happy listening everyone and enjoy the music. Stay tuned for some hopefully final comments within the next few weeks to wrap up this cap test. |
Did the soon-to-be Ref 3 owner have a chance to evaluate the TP 2.0 preamp? |
Wow! The first person to say that they've returned the AH preamp. Thanks for your candor. Hopefully the AR preamp will be more to your liking, Rgd. Keep us posted on your impressions after your evaluations. |
Hi Joe,
Yes, I have installed the floater kit on only the tube board. Since I put the kit in at the same time that I added the V-cap teflon bypasses, I can't do a fair determination of how the floater kit has improved the sound, but I am going to take an educated guess that it's making an improvement as isolating the tubes and caps from the environment should help the sound improve. At this juncture, I have approx. 175 hours on the bypass caps. Still too early to make an evaluation. I am hoping to hear an improvement by late tomorrow evening when they reach the 200 hour mark. At this point, I'm not too impressed yet with the bypasses. I am missing the sweetness and transparency that the OIMP caps were providing by themselves. Up until about the 120 hour mark, the sound has been dreadful to say the least. These teflons are ugly sounding the first 100+ hours. By the way, Joseph and Victor are tonight, as I am writing this, doing an evaluation of the OIMP caps in Joseph's preamp at his home. Victor is going to give me an early opinion either later tonight or tomorrow. Their OIMP's only have about 80 hours on them, still not fully broken in( takes @ 200 hours) but 80 hours should give them enough to form an early perception of their potential. I hope to give a preliminary impression of the overall sound by the end of the weekend. By the way, what's Joseph doing to your preamp? You must be missing it in your system. |
The V-caps OIMP do indeed improve further long after the 120 hour mark. I heard nice improvements after the 150 mark, 200 mark, and 300 hour mark. The last improvement I could make out was at the 316 hour mark. The frequency extremes will also extend and smooth out as well. Whether Joseph and Victor decide that they like it better than the Hovland is subject to system synergy as well as personal preferences. |
"We tried to slow the capacitors down using a balanced copper IC, and indeed, this reduced the digitalizing effect we were hearing and because slower, created a better balance between low and high frequencies, but it thickened the bass and seemed to eliminate the superior micro-detail retrieval we valued before."
I'm not sure why you would want to "slow down" the capacitors. From what I've always read, the best capacitor is no capacitor. Can a capacitor be too fast? I would think that the faster the better as the cap is doing what it is supposed to do while allowing the signal to pass with minimal interference. I'm speaking here from a Layman's point of view. |
Congratulations, Rx8man, on the "floating board" tweak. Now why didn't I think of that? |
Congratulations Jojo. Welcome to the club. Here's hoping that you have many enjoyable hours of musical bliss with your new preamp. |
Welcome "abroad", Rx8man? Do you live overseas? Just kidding. Yeah, I remember JoJo Gunne. It was about 1971. I was just graduating from high school and I heard this song on the radio with the lyrics, "Ride, ride, ride...". I said to my friend, "Hey, I like that group!" I wonder what happened to them? |
It's scary to get old so quickly. Time just flies by anymore. |
Hi Joe,
I look forward to hearing your impressions on all these different tubes. |
Mark,
Why wait two weeks? Do they take that long to break in? Also, is this the same Czech Republic company KR Audio? I just looked at their website and I only see triode-type power tubes. I'm curious what your source is for these E88cc tubes you found. What did they cost you? More than a NOS quad of Siemens CCa? |
Joe, I'm just trying to enjoy the preamp, but am still experimenting with the output caps. I'm keeping a low profile on this tweak until I get the full measure of things. By the way, how are those new tubes working out in your preamp? |
Joe,
I love it when you keep us in suspense. |
Dadgummit, Pat. Just when I thought you couldn't tweak this preamp anymore, your genius comes back to haunt us once again. Keep up the good work. |
Pat,
You're going to give Joseph a nervous breakdown with this "Outer Limits" mod. |
Here's a new web site I found with a supplier of some Siemens CCa tubes:
http://www.tangotubes.com/
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Here's a new web site I found with a supplier of some Siemens CCa tubes:
http://www.tangotubes.com/
Here's the thread that lead me to this web site:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/193507.html
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Sorry for the double post. It was late and I wasn't paying attention. Here is the thread that talked about this tube dealer:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/193507.html
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