Sherod,
Come by and see me if you can - love to play some tunes with you! |
Just received my unit this afternoon and set it up. Had a hum using RCA output with none using balanced outputs, called and Victor and Joseph responded immediately with recommended fix to close the ground. I will listen for first time this evening when family goes to bed. |
Hello. I am very seriously considering obtaining the Audio Horizon TP 2.0 preamp as my first tubed experience, given the wonderful feedback about Joseph and his products here.
Would you be so kind as to update your impressions now that most of you who have posted have been living with the preamp for a longer time than initial impressions posted here earler. I know that I can audition but do not want to do so until I am quite certain that I will keep, to be fair to Joseph.
Has anyone sold theirs and moved on? Anyone interested in selling thiers? Still feel it is the best available? The basic version is wonderfully priced - how necessary/desireable do you think the upgrades are, that are offered? How do you feel about the stock tubes versus upgrade? I am particularly wondering about the expensive B version transform upgrade as I will be presenting the preamp with an unbalanced source DAC but feeding into a amp that accepts balanced input. All short cable runs with clean power.
Associated equip Von Schweikert VR4SR speakers, Aragon 8008BB amp, Northstar Transport and DAC. Geurilla IC cable and PC's.
Thanks
Joe |
Cedar and Sherod
Thank you for responding. Particulaly good to hear that the more basic 2.0n has satisfied, and that the tube upgrade is worth it. I am salvating, now just have to gather funds and support from my dear one. |
Does the TP 2.0 have a standby mode. If not about how long does it need to warm up before being nice to the music. |
Well, folks, you did it! After considering used CATs and BATs and Supratek, the glowing comments got to me and I ordered the works - the Audio Horizopns TP 2.0nB with the gold tubes today. Joseph and Victor have been as responsive and knowledgable as you have all described. Found out that the new phono stage will be able to be retrofitted, and that you can easily get a theatre bypass if you want. Unit should ship in a week. Its Christmas in NC! Thank you for all your comments.
Joe |
Congradulations Bill. Will be excited to hear your reaction. What preamp are you replacing?
Joe |
Bill - that will be an interesting comparison with the CJ reputation for sound that appeals long-term. I think sometimes it is too easy with new equipment to be amazed at all the new stuff heard (partly becauase we are listening so carefully) then a year later feel that the heart and soul of the music could be better conveyed. |
Markwatkiss - Thanks for the welcoming message. I feel privileged to be in such descerning, gracious and helpful company!
Ralphcast - I'm jealous still have to wait till the end of the week to receive mine. Welcome aboard and we are eager to hear your reactions. |
RalphCast - I too have a empty hole marked chasis ground. I can only assume it is for later when Joseph has developed his phone stage which is in the works. But if you find out let us know
Joe |
My unit has about 20 hours on it now. I am listening through the balanced outputs. I am also using solid state amp Aragon 8008Bbb and wanting to experiment with tubes for the first time. This is a very preliminary impression. The AH pre in black is more attractive looking and solid than I thought it would be from the pictures. It has has a very pleasant sound with perhaps a very subtle layer of grunge removed compared to the SS pre Aragon 28K. Also the soundstage seems a bit deeper and more three dimensional perhaps with more air around the instruments and sounds seem more clearly placed. The AH has has a fabulous sparkle on some pieces. So far The amount of detail, and sound stage width seem similar to my SS but the AH seems slightly more natural. Looking forward to doing more listening this evening. So far so good but it is subtle.
Joe |
At 40 hours, it is no longer subtle - the preamp is developing a gorgeous sound - details later. Thank you all for recommending that I give the AH a listen. |
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Bill - Thanks for taking the time to write detailed thoughts. I'm headed to Vegas tommorrow and when I return in a week my AH preamp should be fully broken in. Then I will post my impressions.
Joe |
Tvad. I am currently auditioning AH against a ss pre. I dont know if this will help you but my system was very detailed and on the best 10% of CD recordings couldn't please me more in terms of clairty. But on less ideal recordings and higher volumes it could sound a touch strident or etched. With the AH preamp the best 10% is much more gorgeous and the next 70% have become beautiful to listen to, all without losing detail and clarity. Yet I would not describe AH as warm in any "cover it up way" rather it sounds more like real instruments, with acoustic instruments having their natural warmth and electronic instruments very smooth on new age stuff and acidy on acid rock. So I am being drawn to listen to the large amount of music in my collection that isn't the top 10% and finding much of it captivatingly beautiful, powerful or sparkley or soothing whatever it was intended to be. That is a real treat. As this is occuring in a deeper soundfield with more air and surer location of voices or instruments. Fellow owners - did I capture some of the appeal of the AH? |
Sherod - As I know zilch about tuners my plan is to ask Joseph or Victor to scan the used tuners on audiogon for a good one to mod when I am ready. |
There also seems to be more dynamic range in that sometimes familar recordings go suddenly louder or softer than I am used to hearing on other equipment |
No dampers yet, no remote. Ambivilent with mostly near field listening. Always had preamp remotes and almost never use them. I tend to use the pause of my CD Transport if the phone rings. |
Herbie has three different and differently priced tube rings. Have you guys used the cheapest, or which do you recommend? Also have you experimented with the myrtle wood versus soft isolation products under the unit, and if so what did you prefer? Thanks
Joe |
Cedar, using the myrtle wood directly under the unit, do you then also have something to kill vibrations into the shelf from the ground, protecting the unit from outside vibration? |
We should probably note that there may be safety concerns in having the top removed, for the unit and for the cat! I am not sure that it would lessen vibration effects. But there is plenty of room to try vibration dampening material pasted to the underside of the top metal piece. RxMan I admire your experimental curiosity. I am tempted to cut a piece of plexiglass and compare it to a piece of real glass - both should be easily made to seat with the nice rim around the top. But how about heat disipation from the tubes? |
Well, I have over 300 hours on the Audio Horizons preamp, so it is time for a mini review. I hope it helps folks considering the preamp. I welcome comments and questions. My musical taste favors classical, pop, and rock. I play piano, sing and listen to live music often. The most important aspect of sound in descending order for me would be: natural and non-fatiguing, excellent portrayal of timber, detail, ability to convey instrument and hall decay, accuracy, fast dynamics, bass fullness and slam, and stage width. Less important for me is stage depth and height. The worst thing a system could do is to be strident, harsh, cold, thin, or muddy.
My version of the preamp has the capacitor upgrade and the gold Siemens tubes with only the output transformers upgraded, so I guess you would call it a TP 2.0n1/2B. The unit is attractive to me and wife with nice wood knobs, blue LED, black faceplate,and a solid look and feel. Inside is very clean and carefully laid out. My electrical engineer brother was impressed with the layout. For purposes of this review I mainly used Franz Liszt Transcendental Etudes, Kissen on RCA CD because this piano work is challenging in dynamics, frequency range, transient attack and decay, and compression due to complexity of signal. I also have a grand piano in the same room as a reference, though I can not play to KissenÂ’s level! My equipment is perhaps not as resolving as some of the folks owning this amp but this review may be useful for those who have a decent if not ultimate system.
The main thing I notice with this preamp in the system is increased changability much like live music, rather than a “here we are listening to the stereo again” feeling. For example the contrast between low and high volume that is so dramatic that the volume changes surprise me on well-known pieces. The preamp easily conveys music by turns thrilling, poignant, tender, energetic – whatever is called for with a greater difference in these different “tones” than I ever heard on a system, and moves instantly and effortlessly between them. Also there is more noticeable difference between different pianos, violins, and artist styles etc, not only in timber but also in overall gestalt, so that all instruments and artists have their own personality.
Added to the delight of contrast are many other wonderful attributes. The unit possesses tight, controlled, dynamic, and accurate bass, a wonderfully open, natural and slightly warm midrange, and extended, airy, easy highs. There appears to be zero compression even at high volume with complex music. The main feeling to the sound is sparkling, full-bodied, nimble, beautiful, and non-fatiguing. There is a sweetness and naturalness that is heart opening, much like live music. Sound emerges from a very black background, ultraclear and resolving, but with no trace of stridency, harshness, or grunge. It maintains a good bit of the excitement and delight even at low volumes. Soundstage width, depth and localization are all excellent. As mentioned in other posts, now almost all of my CD collection is listenable at higher volumes without fatigue. Vocals, rock, and New Age are all conveyed well. Male vocals are particularly right. Dense choral works and brass ensembles both are much more interesting and enjoyable to listen to. Hall ambience is conveyed very naturally. I can easily see why some have traded in well-respected and much more expensive preamps in for this baby. They were not just after something new. I would very willing to say that in my system this pramp lacks "X" but I truly at this time can not find anything. It has helped me take a giant step toward fulfilment. Next to speakers it is probably the biggest improvement I have experienced in my system.
Finally I have truly pestered Joseph the designer and Victor his representative obsessively before and after the sale. I would guess there had been nearly 100 emails and repeated phone calls. Victor has taken much time teaching me about tube selection and buying. They have always remained responsive, clear and helpful. I rapidly felt that they were friends who were truly interested in my satisfaction and shared my perfectionistic passion for music, not equipment.
Associated equipment: Aragon 8008BB 200Watt per channel dual mono SS amp, NorthStar 192 DAC and CD Transport, Guerrilla Silver IC and woofer cable, copper to the mid/tweeter biwired, Audio Horizons XRL preamp to amp. |
Thanks for the positive feedback, Bill and Mark. my plesasure to help spread the word. Yes, if Joseph builds it, we will come!
Just ordered cca's for postions #1&3 and early 60's gray plate Siemens for #2&4. Plus Herbie tube dampers. Will be interesting to see what that does.
Also I have been getting great results with a strange tweak. Instead of the myrlewood blocks under the preamp, I am using a tweak that cost me about 20 cents. From Lowes, I obtained a six foot length of polystyrine pipe insulation (a spongy black tube). I cut 1 1/2 inch rings off of this and placed four of them under the preamp. I also have them under my DAC and Transport. My oak shelves are not isolated well from the floor. This wells well for me in this situation. |
I watched several pair go on Amazon and at dealers for way more than I wanted to pay, so I searched audiogon threads for members that seemed to like the cca's, and who were knowledgeable and helpful in threads. I then wrote them asking if they might have a pair at a reasonable price. I recieved some very kind responses with the fellow I got them from selling me his last pair,as he is using Amperex more right now. I got my gray plate 88cc's from him as well at excellent price by being willing to go used rather than NOS. |
Bill - Let us know results |
LA45 I found the Siemans they sent with the preamp to be wonderful, and in fact the stock EH tubes are quite good too. The unit is just so awesome that I wanted to try the NOS tubes suggested just to see if even more performance is possible. I will be trying my NOS and will report the comparision in about a week. Sherod and others may already be able to answer your question in more detail but the preamp definitely sounds great without the NOS treasure hunt. If I played it even with the stock EH it was a dramatic improvement over any other preamp I had heard. |
La45 Congradulations - let us know initial impressions and the how you like it after breakin. Bill thanks forthe Amperex Bugle Boy report. I am also interested in trying the The Amperex PQ white label tubes versus the cca's |
OK Rx8man, we are curious to hear what you have noticed sound wise as a benefit by replacing the metal top with acrylic. |
Rx8man I very much apologize if I was part of your feeling your idea was rained on. I truly meant no offense, just asking new comer questions. Your custom top sounds very elegant and given it is bit of work to do it right was wondering what you noticed in terms of sound. Best wishes |
Sherod
I love mysteries. I am guessing that he approved adding a bunch of damping material to the chassis. Any one else have a guess? |
La45 I noticed improvements as mentioned in the first few days. But I also recommend leaving it on 24/7 playing a continuous CD source with amp off. After one week of this (168 hours) I noticed another leap in performance - thats when the big grin: "I know with certitude that I am keeping this preamp and it was worth every penny" happened for me. |
My Siemens CCa's for #1&3 and gray plate early 60s 88cc's for 2&4, plus Herbies tubes dampers were installed today. I am ready to do some fun tube comparing. As I am new to tube rolling and I expect the diffences to be subtle, do any of you have suggestions on what to listen for, what music to use, how to AB compare etc?
My plan so far is to let them warm up for a hour but given they are all used tubes, start the project without a major breakin period. Also to use pieces like solo flute to check the body and harmonics of notes, and to use my other standard musical selections that I employ for comparing equipment. Any other hints, specific to tubes? Thanks. Joe |
No problem - thought it would be good to have it here as a reference. Plus I wanted to hear any varying opinions about its accuracy to see if we can use it as our Siemens Bible. |
Best I know Joseph is planning a new preamp sometime after April 1, chiefly in response to people wanting a little slimmer design (less height). He has made some changes in the circuit that serve to lower the noise floor a bit more and has been incorporating some of these changes in the more recent preamps he has sent out, to the extent that he could within the old design. The new unit is projected to cost a bit more. This is third hand information from what I have understood when buying my preamp about a month ago from Vincent. Please dont take my word on this as gospel but talk to Vincent for further clarification. BTW Great joke Rx8man! You had us going. |
Sorry, Victor is correct - not Vincent.
Yes, when I heard this news I estimated the chances of any of you parting with your TP 2.0's when the new one came out, so as to get a bargin used unit but I just couldn't wait to hear what you were all so excited about. I am glad that I didn't wait - life is short and I have had a month of delightful music. I figure whatever revisions are made, that our original 2.0's will be collector's items. |
I am 99.9% sure that it is phase inverting as Victor had me turn my speaker leads around and I have non-inverting amp. Just wanted to be the 200th poster here :) Happy bicentential eveyone! |
Welcome Rhanson. Enjoyed your sense of humor in your post. Are you willing to share what pre you replaced, on or off post? Interested that you like the Amperex.
Sherod, The Siemens cca's I tried in position 1&3 were microphonic in my system. I tried Herbies tube dampers and they seemed to dramatically overdampen the sound and put me from row 4 concert hall to row 14.
I am leaning next to trying a matched quad of NOS gray plate early 60's Siemens E88cc's, but have not ruled out Amperex yet. |
Sherod. Yes the fellow audiogoner is happy to take the cca's back. But thanks for the tip. Being new to tubes the variety of choices within just the Siemens and Amperex family, pricing, and policies for audition are a bit daunting. But I am just letting the learning curve happen while enjoying the music. My wife has never seen me taking the top on and off so much with a piece of equipment and she is intrigued (have to keep assuring her that it isn't broken and I havent lost my mind. lol)
Grannyring - thank you for the description of the Amperex. I think I will have to listen to some, given I have a fully ss system as well. |
Yes, I have looked through the tubes threads at Asylum and found them helpful. Victor is very sincere in his conviction that the cc'a's and, short of that, the gray plate Siemens are best in the TP 2.0. And he is very knowledgable and dedicted to the search for "absolute sound" and an expert in the TP 2.0. Yet, from what I hear that the Amperexs can give, they sound intriguing as well. Beside musical perferences (I want to tune my system to awesome classical, though I listen to other genres as well), equipment, and room synergy, you have the personal taste mentioned. Given all this there is plenty of room to experiment. To paraphrase "so many tubes, so little time". |
Yes, at this point I would take your health care system over ours in the US |
LA45 I am glad that you are happy with the your preamp. What version did you get and what tubes are you using - the gold pins or regular Siemens? Curious about the cyro as I have never attempted. Can you walk us through this a step at a time? For example: Did you leave the tubes in? Did you wrap the unit? How long did you leave it in for? Is there a warm up time afterwards before you plug in the unit? Any dangers to watch for, aside from defrosting it and putting it on the grill, thinking it is a steak? |
Victor is sending these questions to Joseph but reports that they already cryo some of the components within the preamp. They have not ever cyro'd the whole thing. So - how brave, adventurous is our little club? Perhaps La45 is our pioneer! I would at least check if it voids the wareentee and probably, as an official cyro woose would go tenth instead of second in this grand experiment. |
Here is the preamp designer, Joseph's response to the cyro idea
"Joseph has gotten back to me and enumerated what hardware in the TP 2.0 he does cryo: The IEC, RCA's, XLR's and tube sockets. He is not comfortable with a complete unit cryo or semi-cryo and doesn't know what affect it would have on the unit in terms of performance or reliability. Each individual would have to decide for himself whether to chance it. More details about the means of semi-cryoing would be appreciated."
We are fascinating creatures. Given how great we think the preamp is and this inspires us to make it even better through tubes and tweaks. But is surely satisfying to start with such a wonderful product.
Joe |
Thanks Mark - I queried him
Joe |
Ralphcast
Interesting polarity article - another thing to ponder. |
I received four matched Amperex 7308 White Lable PQ's today. Initial listen is wonderful. Best I can describe they seem a bit wetter and warmer than the Sieman gold pins (provided as TP upgrade) with a nice sound stage and localization of instruments, lively, and a "break your heart" beauty to some passages. I am at some disadvantage in that my DAC is in for repair (one channel stopped working last week) and so I am using a Yahama DVD player as source at the moment. Can't wait to hear these tubes with my usual front end. (Well, I guess I will have to wait:) |
Rxman Yes the sound stage appears wider, yet less difuse with better localization of instruments. I think that it is also a bit deeper but not dramatically so.
La45 Thanks for the suggestion I have his XLR interconnects, but already have Guerilla audio power cord that I like. I guess I can try on the 30 day trail. Who know how much better it can get with this preamp! |
No White Falcon label on the Siemens, just E188CC |
Best I understand, and I am new to this, is that in the family of 6DJ8 tubes which are used in the AH preamp, the 6922 and 7308 designations were premimum versions of the 6DJ8 rated as 10,000 hours with 6922 the premium industrial version and 7308 the guareenteed low noise version. European designations for these same tubes are the 6DJ8=ECC88, the 6922=E88CC, and the 7308=E188CC. According to Joes Tube Lore:
The Siemens E88CC is characterized by warm, lively, palable and real quality to individual performers, not recommended if your system is already bright. The ECC88 is similar with a slightly forward balance, the E188CC is preferred by him to the cca as slightly warmer, more vibrant and wetter, and is his favorite Siemens, though he prefers Amperex. He describes Siemens cca's (Victor's favorite)as pricey, slightly more dimensional, transparent, and focused compared to these others but lacking a bit of bass punch and slightly dry in comparison. And best I understand the early sixties version of all these tubes tend to be better than late sixties and newer. These early version ofetn come in yellow/blue boxes and have all gray plates. Later version may be in orange/blue boxes. A full guarenteed quad of early cc'a is currently selling on ebay for about $1,600 which puts them out of my league if I want to stay married, which I do:). Hope this helps. Anyone agree or disagree with the descriptions or terminology? |
To me the tube changes are to fine-tune the preamp to one's musical preference, room, and equipment. I could be very very happy with the preamp with the stock EH or Siemens provided, but it is fun to see what other sounds can be experienced. |
