Cable vs. Electronics: biggest bang for the buck

I'm afraid I've created a monster!

Nrchy, at least you had the Purist of intentions :^).

Audioengr - taking in to account the following information in your quotes below:

Audioengr wrote on 09-09-02:

I disagree. Until you have heard a superior system where there are no "weak links", one that is wired with truly low-loss IC's and speaker cables, you will not know what I am talking about. This "tone-control" mentality is what makes it really difficult to get an even playing field to compare cable performance.

Audioengr wrote on 09-10-02:

As for my system, I have 3, so I will describe my reference:

Source: Sony DVP-S7700 transport
Pre: Proceed AVP
Amp: Coda 10.5
Spkrs: KEF reference 104/2
Cables: Empirical Audio

Based on your own logic, a reference system has no weak links. Everything is equal. No single component is better than the next. If something were better or worse it would stick out like a sore thumb, because good cables highlight weaknesses, and reveal problems.

Continuing with your profound logic and through my own deductive reasoning - I can safely assume that the cables your produce are equal to and no better than a Sony DVD player which is no longer in production.

If the cables were better than the DVD Player, you would have been able to identify it as a possible weak link. In a system, an audio signal does not get better than the source that produces it.

Therefore I must say, I am not impressed.

Hshapiro its your turn. I will address both the issues you have with me in two posts. This post addresses the issue regarding what I said in my original post on 08-26-02.

First off, you either mis-quoted me or mis-interpreted what I said. You can either go to the post I made on: 08-26-02 or read what I wrote below:

Biggest bang for the buck? Argh! Tough question but - I would have to say the right cables can make a sad system sing and a great system sound utterly magnificent.

You seem to think I said something different:

Hshapiro wrote:

It was this statement about a good cable making a bad system sound good that I took issue with. For the third time, here is what I actually said in response to your position above, “If, for instance, your electronic components which cost ten times that of your cables are flawed in some obvious way, no $300 cable will come to their rescue. In fact, a good cable, regardless of price, will only reveal other problems upstream.” In this context and this context only, is why on earth I made my original statement. OK?

Okay... Well I didn't say that a "GOOD" cable will make a bad system do anything. I said THE RIGHT CABLE can make a sad system sing. Key word = RIGHT!

When you say that a good cable reveals problems upstream it's idiotic - and the kind of thing you hear folks say who don't know what the hell they are talking about.

This is why I kept quizzing you on which of the cables I named, were good. Not having tried the cables and LISTENED TO THEM YOURSELF, you would have nothing other than the opinions of others, price, and perhaps reviews to base your decision.

Here are three scenarios:

1) you buy and expensive cable, put it in your system and it sounds bad. Does that mean your system has a weak link?

2) you buy a cable that received a great review, put it in your system and it sounds bad. Does that mean your system has a weak link?

3) you buy a cable that everyone is talking about, put it in your system and it sounds bad. Does that mean your system has a weak link?

How do you as the audiophile deduct that the cable is good and your system is bad?

The asinine assumption that a cable will "show" you a weak link just makes me laugh. That is such a mid-fi way of viewing high-end.

As Rcrump put it to Sean - (two guys who I believe in by the way), "Sean, the quote is all wire is crap, but some are less crappy than others." The cables themselves are in many high-end systems - the most likely candidate as the weak link.

Perhaps this will help you - if you already own the VERY BEST SYSTEM in the world & there are no possible upgrades for ANY of your components. And you put what you consider the very best, most highly rated cable at any price in that system and it sounds bad.... what do you do?? Oh my lord!!!!

You buy another cable!

If you have an OKAY system or one like Audioengr's which sounds like systems costing 10x more!! And you put what you consider the very best, most highly rated cable at any price in that system and it sounds bad.... It becomes an issue with TRUST... I think you stepped up to the plate in one of your posts and talked about having a level of confidence in your system vs. the cable. This is good and I think its a fair way to judge performance. What your gut tells you is usually not far off. Needless to say, I don't trust Audioengr's system and therefore I would keep the cable and ditch the system. But that's a rare case! :)

But when you stoop down to a lower level system - lets say something like a Philips CD player, an Outlaw Audio Home Theater Receiver, and Low End Speakers. Cables make a dramatic difference in sound. Yes, it can be very much like painting a $200 car with $2000 in paint - but no joke, the difference in sound is astonishing. In fact, I would have to say that the RIGHT cables in a cheap system will have more impact on a percentage scale than GOOD interconnects in a high(er) end system. Hard to believe? Well... I don't know for sure but experience tells me it is possible.

Keep in mind - cheap systems are harsh, bright, muddy, ugly sounding pieces of doo-doo. This is where the effects of cables can be quite profound.

REMEMBER - I never said GOOD CABLES WILL MAKE A CHEAP SYSTEM GOOD... I said SING. Maybe its Karaoke night kinda stuff, certainly not gospel - definately not REAL good.. but entertaining... often surprising... obviously better than doing nothing and more fun than listening to the cables they ship with the gear.

If you have a crappy system. Try it.

Did you re-read what I wrote about the Nordost demo? That's important because they change the speaker cables on a boom-box and the differences are amazing.

If you don't have a crappy system, do you have a VCR? Try switching the cables on your VCR with your Virtual Dynamics and see if you can hear a difference. Not sure if your TV speakers are capable but you might hear an improvement.

Hshapiro on to tone... What I said was surely very confusing. Especially since most people perceive tone as a pair of knobs which add or subtract from bass and treble.

To me, tone is much more significant in that it encompasses or provides for the nuance, subtleties, emotion, timbre, dynamics, and transparency of music. While the list of what tone does goes on - I am limited for time tonight. :)

I have been trying to select a good analogy to describe tone to you and its been tough but I think I've got a good one...you'll have to do a little creative thinking and imagining to understand.

Take a familiar image - say the Mona Lisa and lets imagine it as a drawing made from pencil - maybe even us drawing it. With a pencil there is a limit to how dark and how light the colors (tone) can be. Ultimately the paper on which the image is drawn becomes the clearest - brightest surface to work with and a hard pressed pencil produces the darkest blackest tone of shadowy silence possible.

Are you with me?

Creating the truest shape and the life-like form of the Mona Lisa in pencil would then become simply a matter of using everything in-between the bright white and dark black to produce the shades of gray that ultimately define the image you see. Every nuance is described by a different gray... Long gradients of light to dark show us the gradual change from height to depth while short gradients provide us with insight into the detail and sudden drops.

If we imagine the frequency spectrum as Black being bass - til silence and White being treble til silence. We can better view how all the tone in-between shapes the sounds we hear. Its the millions of grays that describe the context of the music.

These grays tell us the difference between a Krell and a Jadis, or a Sony DVD player and an Audiomeca Mephisto. They also tell us the full emotional story about the music being played in a full 3D soundstage.

Every change to a system effects the way the grays are interpreted by you, the listener. You perceive those changes and try to describe them with a limited vocabulary... No offense - I am sure you have a great vocabulary but, can you describe 3 million or so grays individually? How about 16+ million in a full color portrait? Not to mention the fact that the English language offers very little for describing what we hear.

SO without the words to describe exactly what we here we are forced - to use visual cues.

That said, the word tone can in fact mean many things and in audiophile terms it is quite broad since most of the things that audiophiles hear are defined by the millions of grays in-between the sharp contrasts of black and white.