Tom
Maybe I have misunderstood? I thought you meant amp designs that did not use coupling capacitors at all and used an interstage transformer?
Jimmy's page talking about what he preferred.
http://jimmyauw.com/2010/08/16/battle-of-three-capacitors/ |
Regismc
The conditioner... Well now I feel much better saying I could really hear the first cap in the power supply...
Interesting about the VCaps Cuft I have them as well and they are lightening fast but not sure where to put them. I have not sold them but do not know what to do with them? I was thinking a bypass cap on the power supply? |
Regismc
In your power conditioner I assume you used each of these caps as bypass caps?
Your post has really got me thinking...
When I had the vintage amp installed with a ASC poly caps in the power supply the "signature" was easily discernible. I was quite shocked. I am getting that amp re-checked by technician and will listen again. When I replaced the vintage power supply cap with the Jensen again very noticeable. I know this could upset people but putting in the Jensen electrolytic cap literally made me feel getting all the Duelund parts would not have been worth it without the right sounding power supply cap. (the vintage in this case)
I said at the time I think that the power supply cap may be the most important of all caps yet almost felt crazy saying so as it is not even in the signal path. How could it be? Now you are saying even in the power conditioner? (without a doubt not in the signal path)
Your post has got me thinking caps exert a "signature" somehow right on to the supply of electricity?
For a long time I have hoped someone on this thread would do a paper in oil power supply. Apparently Leak did this years ago to great success. |
Ricevs
If I remember right Tony Gee said the same about (bypass) caps except maybe the high end caps you mentioned. When you find the right spot do give Duelund's a try.
You also mention any cap larger than .33uf needs a bypass. All of my amps are vintage and use .047 or smaller. Anyone know what caused the change in thinking for modern designs to be .47uf or .22uf? |
"Whatever 'type' of cap one uses, you can easily id its 'signature' sound downstream. Frankly to an astonishing extent".
I for sure can not argue with this.
Like Tony Gee had said Duelund has a Super Natual sound. I might be on my own on this but think the "signature" that caps gives leaves me wondering can you get to much of the Duelund "signature"? I know maybe my wallet can only afford so much "signature" but can my ears get too much of it?
I will re-check when the vintage ASC power supply amp comes back but those poly caps in the power supply seemed to overwhelm the entire vintage character of the amp and Duelund crossover to something totally different. Changing the coupling caps from vintage to Duelund CAST made the amp much beefier, faster and better but the character remained. Never did the amp change "character". The VCap Cuft changed the character of the amp as well.
I found the same on mix and match in the crossover. Change to just one cap to a poly cap and you change the "character"
That comes back to the Duelund power supply I wish I could afford to chance. My gut tells me if ASC and Jensen Electrolytic leave a signature a Duelund power supply would have a "signature" I would love and make a very big difference! |
Just been away looking at Solar and Tesla cars. Other interests than Audio. More tests coming once the weather cools! |
Grannyring
I for sure am not against cheaper parts being just as good or better. I have said many times vintage caps can represent a very good bargain. (as they are in essence free) My original oil caps were bettered by Duelund in the midrange but not by a large margin.
I am only saying what is the science in these poly caps being better and I am not saying they are not? What makes them better than say any other poly cap?
Update on Duelund in series tweeter inductor. I have taken the Duelund inductor out again and the vintage wax paper inductor is back in.
Clarify what the two parts are one the vintage inductor thin gauge round wire wrapped tight around a paper bobbin in wax paper. The Duelund is of course 12 gauge foil wire. Why does the vintage inductor sound better? Is it the change in DCR or maybe the Duelund is just noisier than the vintage part which it seems to be???
In the woofer the vintage wax paper inductor was a very thin gauge wire with an iron core inductor and the air core 12 guage Duelund which had the same DCR was much better but the vintage was quieter than the North Creek.
Here I will say it. I suspect that resonance suppression in the tweeter inductor is more important than the gauge of the wire. If this is true maybe the vintage inductor is better? The comparison is based on Duelund VSF which does not have the same construction to deal with resonance that the CAST does.
What would I like to see Duelund do? Maybe a thinner gauge wire option for the tweeter and cheaper price but still CAST? Inductors are a VERY big deal.
I am not so sure at this time that I can say a Duelund VSF inductor is good enough for the tweeter. |
At 10+ hours these tubes sound terrible!
Very dead sounding. Very HiFi sounding. Very poor dynamics. I feel like someone has been pulling my leg. So far these are the worst sounding tube I have heard in my system. I had only vintage tubes until the Genelax Gold Lions which are VERY good. I sure hope this improves! If this is what most new tubes sound like I can see the mega $ on NOS tubes. |
Irish and I are both in the inductor camp. (as in I can not believe how much difference they make)
A friend was over who has Khorn's and subs and he could not believe how much bass was coming out of my Lascala's a bass shy speaker. His speakers are rated for 20hz lower, his system is home theater based with subs and yet mine which is two channel has more bass. (not deeper but much more)
I know the reason and it is the Duelund inductors. I only have VSF inductors and the thoughts of going from them to CAST has enter my mind many times... |
"That's interesting about the vintage inductor". Salectric
I not so sure the vintage beating the Duelund VSF inductor is so surprising. I have been shocked how many times when you think about how the parts work that results are logical. The vintage is a hard wire wrapped very tightly in wax. The Duelund is a foil. If you ask yourself which will move easier? It is hard not to think the foil. The Duelund likely has 100x as much top to bottom surface area on the foil over I think around 28 guage solid wire.
Since the frequency is high the benifet of 12 gauge is maybe low?
It is just crazy how many times the part sounds like it looks. The North Creek woofer inductor has no resonance control it sounds hard like it looks. It lets through signal but the noise is to high. The vintage 28 gauge iron core wax paper was quiet but did not let through the bass the Duelund VSF had resonance control compared to North Creek was 12 gauge unlike the vintage which was 28. The Duelund made a huge improvement. I bet the CAST even much more so.
Regrets so far.
1 I wish I bought CAST woofer inductor vs. VSF.
2 Duelund VSF for tweeter not good enough. CAST or nothing and I wish smaller gauge and CAST might not be worth it as the vintage is a lot better than VSF.
3 Jensen Electrolytic way to noisy. (too lightweight and no wonder everyone like those big heavy Black Gates)
In hindsight these are all logical to me now.... |
Sherwood posted a link to an older review of caps. Again to the what it looks like. The reviewer said the Mundorf was not much better than the Soncicaps and I have to disagree and have heard both of them quite a bit. The Mundorf sounds similiar to Sonicaps as it is being poly but is MUCH more dynamic. Is the Mundorf Supreme not 2 caps in one or something? |
I have been following Jimmy's site on his testing of the "no name" electrolytic capacitor in the power supply. He says he could recognize the difference in a few seconds and that is over the Jensen 4 pole Electrolytic.
"on several seconds" I have not heard the Jensen 4 pole only have the 2 pole but on "several seconds" I could hear how much better the vintage electrolytic is. To me this means "if" the Jensen is considered a very good electrolytic by Jimmy and I am sure he has heard most all and within "several seconds" he could hear an easy difference we are nowhere near as good as we could be with electrolytics!
Occasions where I could hear the difference within "several seconds".
1 going from vintage foil in oil tweeter caps to Duelund VSF.
2 going from Duelund VSF tweeter caps to Duelund CAST.
3 going from vintage woofer inductor to Duelund VSF
4 going from Jensen Electrolytic back to vintage
5 comparing Sonicaps to vintage foil caps
Out of all the parts I have changed hearing the difference "in several seconds" happens far less than "needing hours" to hear the difference or admitting you can not hear the difference or are not sure what the difference is?
Parts that took time but differences can be heard
1 comparing a vintage foil midrange cap to a Duleund VSF
2 comparing Mundorf Supreme to Sonicaps
3 comparing Duelund Silver 2.0 to stranded copper for speaker cable.
4 comparing on a friends Khorns 20 yr old stock poly caps to Sonicaps. (I can't hear the difference)
If one can hear the difference "in several seconds" that indicates quite often a HUGE resonance reduction. I had mentioned on here before if a Jensen Electrolytic is an indication of a very good modern electrolytic then modern electrolytics are very poor! An area where MUCH can be done for improvement.
I know some will say how can you make big improvements over a top level part? Well Duelund VSF was considered the best cap in the world " super natural" and a CAST came along and is wayyyyyy quieter. |
Sherod
Any idea on how long the Psvane's have that greyish tone?
Right now they are like a blanket over the music?
I went and got some of my old Mullard 12AX7's to listen again. They sound very similiar to the Gold Lions but the Gold Lions (Genalex) sound every bit as good and better IMO.
I was looking and prices for vintage tubes have really went up.. Maybe now I can see why?
The Psvane's on the other hand? Other than the Genalex's I have not used new 12AX7's and maybe got a false sense new tubes were pretty good...
Not to be too critical of the Psvane's they seem well built as are the Genelax's. |
Sherod
Mine sounded dead and lifeless out of the box to a shocking degree and tones were grey. Sinking feeling in the stomach not just of the money but lack of choice of a new tube.
The good news they have improved dramatically at around 30 hours to the point they sound nothing like they do new and are becoming quite good! I could tell right off the bat they were low resonance. I really thought this was going to be no contest with the Gold Lions but now I am not so sure...
I hope the Psvane's keep improving!
Are we in a second tube era where it is no longer some tube of the past? |
Charlesdad and Sherod
I only posted initial impressions for someone else who may hear them. I thought the Psvane's were terrible out of the box and had not heard anyone say this? I even took them out to listen to music. I do have to admit even right off Sherod I knew they were going to be very good at the high frequency. I could hear they were low resonance tube though right off.
In the burn in process I would change the tube in and out and my daughter could hear the difference on a video game! (it was that big) I kid you not, double blind and she could hear the difference. She loves her video game hooked up to several thousand $$$ worth of Duelund caps! We have really got great family use out of the Duelund parts. Just two channel for movies but the sound is awesome!
The Gold Lions did not change in sound so much through the break-in. |
At the end of the 12AX7 test whichever tube I think is the best will get the sales of replacement of my vintage tubes I will be retiring them to reference new tubes.
These are good times for tube lovers! Is this the tube golden era??? I can say none of my vintage tubes has the has anywhere near the high freq clarity of the Psvanes. (Wow!)
Is this going to end up like a Duleund CAST vs. a vintage cap?
I think the internet has been excellent for connecting a small group locally but larger group world wide who care about this kind of stuff to producers and customers. I think this is why we are getting real breakthroughs. |
Psvane's getting around 100 hours on them now. So far in early testing they are quiet but do not have the tonality of the Genalex Gold Lions. I am burning them in in the phase inverter section which they seem good in but have had them in the pre-amp several times. So far with a slight greyish tone? The difference so far is the Genalex makes the performance come alive and seem real the Psvane's more HiFi.
This thread started with value of parts idea. I would spend my money first on capacitors and for sure that over some obscure tube unless the tube is an investment? A Duelund CAST or even a Jensen Copper foil paper tube is massively bigger than many other capacitors the difference is tubes is not so great but I think this is to be expected as one tube is not 30x bigger than another like a capacitor can be.
When I bought my CAST tweeter caps there was not the volume discount on 630v types. Curious if the physically bigger ones sound better than 100v caps? |
Just finished testing vintage tubes vs. Psvane and Genalex Gold Lions.
When the Genalex went in the preamp section over the vintage I noticed right away less resonance and a fuller sound. When I got the Psvanes things were even quieter when used with the Genalex's. (maybe to quiet)
The vintage tubes thin out voices wash out the sound but when first installed give the sense of air. The combination of Psvane and Genalex reveal things like the singer can not hit the note. The voice becomes much more real faults and all. Which is better Psvane or Genalex? Not sure yet...
For a couple minutes things sound better with vintage tubes but then I realize the price that is paid by all the resonance.
I am going to get another set of Genalex 12AX7's to compare directly vs. Psvane |
Revision to which is most important caps.
1. In my opinion now phono stage. Another CAST ordered for that location. (massive improvement there)
2. Maybe line stage
3. Tweeter caps.
4. Woofer inductor. (wish I had CAST instead of VSF)(that might put that part at top of the list?)
Duelund cap coming along with Gold Lions for phono stage.
I will literally have to replace small value caps or upgrade some speaker caps from VSF to CAST from here. |
Salecetric
I can not argue with your list as it is more or less the same except 1-2. Why do you not have the phono stage #1? The signal is more fragile.
The Duelund's not having enough life or sparkle on the top end. This is something I have thought a fair bit about and why I took my time replacing the last cap in the phono stage. The vintage cap had more air and life.
The reality is this is something created by the cap... Resonance.
My crossover circuit was 2 2uf's in series for the tweeter. I ended with not two CAST's but CAST followed by VSF. It was that very sparkle you talked about.
For coupling I have a CAST and VSF together. (in some spots)
It is strange on this thread I seem to be the only one mentioning the extreme difference in energy of the CAST over even the VSF. Just way more alive and dynamic.
In comparing the vintage tubes to the Gold Lions 12AX7's. My first reaction always is the vintage tube has more "air and sparkle". In time I can hear the vintage tubes are resonating and wash out voices of richness and much prefer the new Gold Lions. On the downside without the resonance the Gold Lions will reveal a singer struggling to hit a note but I know it is real.
The lack of "air and sparkle" of the CAST (and I agree with you) is in reality something the cap is not adding...
This comes back to the Clarity White Paper saying 30% of people prefer high resonance caps. The majority prefer low resonance but still this means there is something we like about high resonance parts. (air and sparkle)
In theory if reducing resonance was all good 100% (or almost) would prefer it.
All this being said am I the only one who thinks not only is the CAST extremely natural in tone but the dynamics are on a total different level even than VSF. Maybe losing some resonance induced sparkle but gaining a MUCH more alive sound. (big energy gain) |
Charles
I am glad you spend so such time listening to live jazz then comparing to you HiFi after all that is what this hobby is about. Nice to have opinion of someone who hears so much live music. I am in agreement with you on CAST.
My daughters friends have been over and they have commented to my daughter they just can't believe the sound. If anyone has noticed women like live music but are not into HiFi. In the time frame of this thread (start) my wife would tolerate my stereo now I will come home and it is on...
My mother used to say that's nice about my old stereo saying she did not think it really that much better than her Bose Wave Radio. (an honest jab)(she thought it a waste of money) Now she is going Holy Cow. I think she thought I had a big Bose Wave Radio before. (to her)
With women they do not care about tubes, SS, type of speaker, type of cap etc.. It either sounds like live music or it doesn't. |
Charles
I was just again out listening to what was likely a $100k stereo and it sounded nice but I could not pick out what anything was really. To a women why would one ever spend $100k on a stereo and if it did not even sound anything like live music a women is just saying why???
Can we really argue with that?
VSF to CAST. When the VSF went in the tweeter it was all good from day one and just got better great tone no confusion. When the CAST went in I went over to see if the tweeter was even working, literally. Astounding noise reduction along with more high freq energy. Before I got them people would say are you really even going to hear a difference especially coming from VSF? I was fully with them not expecting a difference or something that was going to take a long time to figure out. (law of diminishing return)
CAST challenge us to think what was really on the recording... (disorientating, VSF are not)(that is why the discussion on CAST goes to are they beyond what we want?)
I am with you I think CAST goes to very real. I am waiting for the day when someone comes on here and says I just could not hear a difference. There is always someone! |
I think the solution to what Salectric is talking about is VSF. Keeps the same super Natural tone but with more what he is talking about.
How many of you guys out there have followed Steen's thinking to as much as possible? Who has gone the farthest?
I have, all coupling caps Duelund (one Jensen Paper in oil just because of room) so all plastic free. (even small value vintage ones)
No electrolytics in the signal path, no electrolytics in the crossover. Output transformers are paper bobbin, autoformer in the crossover is paper bobbin, all crossover caps are Duelund mix of VSF and CAST. Woofer inductor Duelund, tweeter inductor paper bobbin vintage. (I have a Duelund VSF but did not work)
Speaker cable is Duelund Silver 2.0 version II. Speaker internal wire is Duelund Silver 1.0 except woofer is Duelund Copper. (no longer for sale)
I am down to literally inches of plastic covered stranded wire. The only electrolytic is vintage in the power supply. (I would love someone to try a paper in oil power supply)
My comp drivers except woofer are Alnico.
Interconnects are just stock. Oppo is stock so whatever is in there for caps? LP 12 is stock in the sense no changes based on getting rid of plastic. |
Hmmm seems I have some work to do on mounting and insulating some leads. Lots of info on here. |
Ricevs
Holy Smokes some serious work on the Oppo.
Interesting site. |
The Duelund CAST vs. vintage. Before the vintage is taken out there is a LOT less record surface noise from the CAST. The surface noise is in the freq range of the resonance I suspect of the vintage cap. Around a 75% reduction and the noise is at a lower freq. |
Tas
I have not used the VSF Black but have quite extensive use of VSF caps in electronics, inductors, caps in crossovers, CAST in electronics, CAST in crossovers and all Deulund is great. I am sure you will love the black. Sometimes I use like you VSF in electronics due to space.
I have heard the Black is in the middle from VSF to CAST and I think originally made to be in th middle for cost and sound reasons from VSF to CAST.
I have found you can intermix new copper foil in oil of different brands and even vintage. Now metalized poly caps... (no in my mind)
The difference in foil caps is the quality of the metal aluminum, copper, silver and the the resonance and it's control. You have low resonance caps Jensen Paper foil in oil VSF and lowest of all CAST and you have high resonance caps new ones like Ampohm and vintage fall into this category.
Resonance in some spots is worse than others. Tweeter caps need low resonance. Phono stage and pre-amp need low resonance.
Mid range? Resonance does add fullness to the freq that resonance occurs. I did not find a huge difference in VSF to vintage in the midrange. (like to do that test again sometime)
Woofer oddly enough you want a low resonance part there. Wish I had CAST but VSF was much better than vintage. |
Wired up my other CAST cap for the phono stage.
Did not sound very good going in for the first 30 minutes.
New CAST caps are overpowering in the beginning at least in electronics. They sound stiff and aggressive. If I had not been through this before I would be worried but I am not. They tilt the sound big time to where they are (new) but the good news is they settle down in time. (and produce less volume)
This phenomenon which is strange is CAST (brand new) vs. CAST (well worn in) in this test.
Not sure what causes this? Did not notice this when the VSF's went in? I suspect something to do with the CAST'ing process. |
I did take advice from this thread and used some extra Duelund silk from some old Duelund Copper wire I had left and put it on the leads of the CAST cap.
I also tied down a CAST cap that was "dangling". (pretty bad really)(started to feel guilty)
Oh boy am I going over the edge? (LOL)(really though it does make sense we spend so much money for CAST'ing process then let the leads float. |
Grannyring
I found what you said about bypassing in the power supply very interesting. I was shocked when I changed out the vintage electrolytic for a new Jensen. It was more than any other change. (the vintage being that much better)
You say bypassing your electrolytic was huge improvement but not in coupling caps. Is this because the electrolytic is so poor (and maybe slow) to begin with?
Would not one high quality power supply cap be even better?
Would you like to try a paper in oil power supply cap? (just kidding)
It has been in my mind ever since hearing vintage electrolytic vs. Jensen. Jensen sounded dry the heavier vintage sounded more liquid.
I have heard even years ago McIntosh did some bypassing? (accepting the improvement) I understand that even a Leak Pre amp had a paper in oil power supply 60 years ago?
Has anyone tried the new rectifier tubes from Mullard or Gold Lion? |
I see Duelund is doing autotransformers from the Jeff's Place website. For us that have them in the crossover this is big news! My speakers use similiar design to Westminster Royal's. I have been running out of parts to replace! With the exception of replacing some VSF with CAST or Silver which is just not happening here.
My current autoformer is a wax paper design which my guess can only be bettered by better resonance control of the CAST. There was much I liked about the VSF tweeter inductor but ultimately was too noisy. My only lonely Duelund part that sits in the closet. One thing I hope this thread does is avoids missteps for others, I wish I bought a CAST tweeter inductor wonder what was I thinking?... |
Too funny Roxy!
That is how the whole thing got started I really thought I was throwing money away on my first VSF cap that someone recommended on this thread... After that one part led to another and another and another but at least I have lost weight! |
I have re started the Duelund vs. vintage tweeter in series inductor test.
Vintage is a wire wound inductor wrapped actually quite tight in wax Duelund is a VSF and in past tests vintage won leaving this as my lonely Duelund part.
The biggest difference is 12 gauge foil vs. very thin gauge wire.
In the past the test was more on digital as that was before the CAST caps went in phono stage. One more try...
Now thinking logically I never should have got the VSF as it was not much of a change like CAST could have been (in noise reduction) but I did not know as this was in series inductor... |
Salectric
Sorry that is the parallel tweeter inductor and is a resonance trap? Not exactly sure what that means?
Jwm
I hope you do not lose it in a fit of shaking, but no...
You just can not change the DCR in a circuit without radically changing the sound. The Duelund is 12 gauge the vintage is very thin but is very tightly wrapped in wax paper. So you can not automatically put in a Duelund part and keep Jwm from shaking!
The sound is much hotter sharper. For anyone who does not know what they are doing (maybe me) do not change the resistance in the circuit of one driver or you will change the sound and maybe/likely not for the better.
I am uncertain how much is resistance (thin wire) and how much is wax? I suspect wax slows the sound down and the highs even more... Makes it dull?
I like most do not like to waste money on parts. All of the Duelund parts I have got have been great except this one and maybe the round solid copper wire. (this one is not a fault maybe of the part but the application)
I am unsure as to what the goal is on parallel tweeter parts? (I am sure not to add noise?)
This post is just trying to get anyone who reads this to save some money maybe or be careful on changing parts that change the DCR. |
On Jeff's place he has the same style autotransformer as I do.
I have thought for a long time this would be a weak link. Very thin gauge wire. On here a long time ago I asked Frederik about building autotransformers and glad to see he has!
On this site there is some flack about the price and no doubt at $4500 U.S. each for the copper ones...
Ordered direct as no doubt it will be a fairly small market to say the least. Nevertheless I am glad Frederik is doing this as removing weakness is part of this hobby even if it is not affordable. (to me anyway)
Now the original focus of this thread was parts for the dollar. I can not imagine that )and I bet the autotransformer are better) that the bang for the buck is anywhere near replacing an entire crossover and all coupling caps in the amp for likely the same money...
There has been good advice on here where to start for most bang for the buck... (tweeter, phono and line stage caps always seem top of the list) |
Sorry the link
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=5784 |
Grannyring
These are the Copper foil that are for sale at partsconnexion?
I might try some of these. I could use some small value caps. |
Had my one amp in today to the co-incidentally local guy who is an amp builder and repair. Something is not quite right.
He always has some very good gear in for repair and of course lots of guitar amps.
In testing he took out the tubes and the Gold Lion 12AX7's test very strong. I have found the Gold Lions to be very dynamic and the Psvane did not test as strong although well within normal.
The EL 84 7189/6BQ5 Russian Preffered series ('80's military spec I am told) are a little weak after 1 to 2,000 hours in 13 months. New tubes Gold Lions coming. I guess normal for this type of tube.
One thing that did really surprise me one Duelund CAST cap was leaking oil and was wet. Not sure if this is what has sent sound off? It has not been tested yet as the volume control pot needs replacing on the amp and I will have him check it out then.
Now back listening to original amp that started this thread years ago. Just a dead quiet vintage amp that blew me away. |
Tas
This is fantastic and please keep us updated on the VSF Blacks. There has been much CAST talk but in my tweeter it is CAST followed by VSF on purpose. I have always wanted try the Blacks they say in the middle. I think they were made for Merlin? I would not hesitate to buy them for a second! |
Tas
I will find out the cap is going back. I happen to have an extra here so no big deal except the break in time.
With the dead quiet vintage amp... In the past speakers were often horns. The enemy of horns is noise. I used to go as a kid to a theater that had the big curved screen and would show 70mm movies. I used to go and everyone was in awe of the screen I was in awe of the sound! It was big horn maybe Western Electric or Altec? They used to power the whole theater with a few watts. Mostly Western Electric 300b's is my guess. It was dead quiet.
The amp builder has the big Altec's and that is not what I remember from the theater I think it was Western Electric. |
New tubes today for the vintage loaded with Duelund amp.
Worn out tubes and Duelund caps do not sound better than good tubes and vintage caps not by a long shot.
In this testing I kept what was the best sounding amp stock as a reference point. I have modded the lesser sounding amps and now want to hear what a rectifier tube does |
Audiolabyrinth
In my opinion 30% that Grannyring has stated could be shy of what you get. Of couse % are very hard to calculate and I doubt he wants to overstate.
My feeling is it varies from part to part and you can get good info in here where to start.
Tweeter caps for me enormous. Maybe 30% just for them...
Woofer inductor was shocking as well but is more costly but maybe as large.
If given a choice I would for sure go crossover first. This was Steen Duelund's thoughts as well. His thought was 50% of your system in speakers 50% of the speaker $ in the crossover. |
|
The amp will be sitting for a week (holidays) the cap is going back.
I might take a ribbing here but I knew something was wrong within just a few hours. Took the amp for a check up to the amp builder and when plate came off oil leaking out of the CAST cap... (to my surprise I was thinking tubes)
The cap had not leaked much at that point. Bought some new tubes to see if that was it sound problems. Hooked back up sounded better but within a hour or two started to get worse again and there was a little oil under the amp. (leaking faster)
I have say I shocked myself how quickly I could hear something going wrong.
Too much listening to caps! When the Jensen Electrolytic went in power supply before I could hear it right away.
What does a cap sound like going bad? As the oil goes out the sound gets drier, edgy.
To people who do not think you can hear caps that's crazy. I could hear how much oil was leaking out! |
I am very glad this very long thread has worked out so well for so many of us...
The actual cause of the start of this thread was when I installed a full new crossover into my speakers on one side with Sonicaps vs. the vintage foil caps. Like most people I think I wanted to believe that my work (time) and money was making things better. The new caps with all this progress (of 30 years) were much smaller. I had my wife come down almost grudgingly to listen. I wanted a blind test listener. She listened blind to the 30 year old crossover and the brand new one. She went WOW that one is clearly way better! She said that one just sounds sooooo much better and real you must be really happy?
The problem was and I did not tell her (she was really impressed) she was picking the vintage foil in oil caps!!! That caused the start of this thread as I went this is not just bolt in new parts sound better. The thread started as just a sharing of thoughts.
I was under the impression all new caps better than all old ones? So I said I have to go up the quality scale and get some Mundorf Supreme's (which were better) and Duelund was the same style as the vintage but much better!
Oddly enough for someone reading this thread VSF was not chosen as a snooty exotic cap it was the only one that was better in all ways to the vintage caps. In fact the VSF might fit the bill of being 10-30% better in the midrange (not super huge) the tweeter caps were a 100% better!
I was impressed and shocked (by all of this) and started to read all of Steen Duelund's writing that I could and that I could understand.
Then I tried the CAST tweeter caps putting one speaker against another a VSF vs. CAST comparison. I was ready to really put my ears on to see if I could hear a difference. I literally thought I wired something up wrong going to the CAST tweeter speaker putting my ear to it to see if it was still working! To my shock there was just sooooo much less noise. People had told me (including Frederick) that of course the difference was not going to be like vintage to VSF but it was at least as big to my shock!
Now let us all be speaker manufactures for awhile. The common number I hear is $12k in the speakers allows for $2k in manufacturing costs? We are a very small market caring about sound quality rather than appearance. Steen talked about this in some of his papers on why there had been so little progress on sound quality yet stunning finishes on new speakers but this is for the eyes not the ears.
Thanks for all the nice comments about this thread but we really all owe a lot to Steen (now Frederik) for making these improvements and it goes to show the money must be in sexy speakers...
Now for the second blind test.
I took the amp in knowing not guessing something was wrong with the sound but not knowing what is was? In seeing the leaking CAST I went wow it had not been leaking that long either.
The amp builder (who is an absolute great guy!) said "that is why I do not like these exotic caps". He meant it like it was all a farce, waste of money or maybe that he has not had failures in his machine made caps? I have talked about having him over to hear the speakers but am worried...
I already know it sounds better than any amp I have heard in his store for repair and he has had some good ones!
His comment guys are exactly why we do not have high end parts in many speakers or amps. He has a vested financial interest in NOT thinking expensive caps sound better... (or heaven forbid if they were not as reliable)
To me I can deal with wiring in another cap I have only had one go bad but I can not handle crappy sound from a cap that lasts forever... |
Charles
In doing the testing one part change at a time was done to avoid trying to do sound tests by memory which I thought could lead to the brain saying it is better because I spent $$$ on it.
Cost was another factor when I first bought Duelund parts one part seemed like enough money. If it did nothing and before this blog there was no body of people saying the same thing and to be honest my first CAST purchase i thought i might be nuts! All that money on a capacitor!! After a while I started buying in pairs installing one at a time. (when I knew kind of what to expect)
In amplifier tests cap tests I have done three vintage amps all same brand keeping the best sounding one all stock as a reference to go back too. Again to see is this real progress? It is the one I am currently using (now with cap problem) and it is still very good! It might be even better (with the vintage Vishay ERO caps) at realism in voices than the Duelund caps? If it is an acoustic recording maybe better? Vintage lacks dynamics though.
It has been said on here before the CAST are awesome but might lack a bit of air?
Tas might have the best caps? Has anyone compared the VSF Black to CAST? I have not only CAST to VSF.
What has shocked me as well is just like Tas's initial impression of his mods were very good how many times initial impressions stick... |
I think this has reached the point that Frederik should shed some light. My original CAST caps had this organic smell the last bunch did not? Or at least I remember the smell of the originals VSF and CAST.
I can assure everyone they for sure are oil as be of mine is leaking. I just have it out and am replacing it today with a brand new one sitting here that I have. I can take pics of the leaking one if someone needs this?
I am sure there is something in the CAST caps for rigidity (helping with the extremely low loss of energy) I was under the understanding they were all natural as well? |
Tas my feeling on this is women do not care about HiFi... They do however love music.
Another one that struck me a long time ago was my teenage daughter would say I am literally afraid (for real) to go into the basement and turn the corner. I know it is a stereo but I am still afraid there are people there. She has had her teenage friends over and even my wife was saying the teenage girls could not get over the sound... Kept going on about it.
I am not sure if I could tell the difference from liver either from around the corner.
In Frederik's defence yes for sure even the later CAST caps without the smell do have oil inside as mine just went back today to partsconnexion.
I can assure beyond a doubt they have oil or I should say mine did but it leaked out... All this talk made me want to cut it open. |
Bill for sure did not want you to think you were being picked on.
Frederik I think there is a natural skepticism people have to a company establishing a quality name and product and then claiming lower prices for the same product. (been done so many times)
Is it wise to even put out a special order CAST cap with different materials with the CAST name? Is this what Bill has seen? I know my CAST cap did leak oil but did not have the natural smell of the old CAST caps and why?
If the reason was to save money is that not against what Steen stood for? (no compromises)
Yes the CAST cap sounded very good even with the different paper outside. I did not have the other one though to compare.
I suspect the reason some think the crossover caps sound better is just the comparison to what was already there.
Irish65 was one to claim that CAST made more difference in electronics over VSF. |
After a couple weeks listening to the all vintage amp I have called the repair guy to basically beg him to fix the amp (move up the waiting list) with all the Duelund caps and some Jensen Paper Copper tube caps in. Vintage is just a mess! (timing is awful) No amps are staying stock anymore.
Even where I thought vintage caps sounded good (certain specific freq) they are really just high resonance, stretching and hollowing of sound...
I am going to try some Jupiter caps though from the good reports here.
Their price in small values (especially) is much less.
There is negative to all of this. My office system is not Duelund and all of this changes the bar... This has made me very picky. (not by intention I can just hear the faults)
At some point I am having two amps modded in case on goes down...
I see no reason to leave any amp stock now even for reference. |
