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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
ricevs
1,543 posts
 
Damping the caps simply means having them hard mounted to something. A lot of people have the caps up in the air or off a circuit board....not good. Also having the caps and xover inside a speaker is really not a good thing. Use a hard wired outboard xover for better sound. I use a little Amazing goop to hold the cap down. Do not use the double stick Scotch tape used for mounting things on the wall. This thick spongy tape will kill the highs and close down the sound. If you have the cap mounted to something that is vibrating....then it is vibrating. Isolate circuit boards with cork and use EAR SD40AL to damp heatsinks, boards, chasses, etc. EAR stuff sold by Michael Percy Audio. Cork sheets you get at hardware store.

If the leads on the cap are covered with Teflon or other plastic then damping the lesds will do very little. However, most caps have naked sold core leads and simply putting cotton sleeving on wires will improve sound mucho.

The WA Quantum dots are distributed and sold by The Cable Company. I will have them in stock to sell soon too.

The clearest way to measure the outside foil is to use a 1K sign wave as large as you can get (10V RMS is what I use) and feed one side of the cap the hot from the signal generator and the other side of the cap gets the negative. The cap is mounted inside a large steel paper clip or if you cannot get one that big then make a tube of copper out of copper foil and wrap the cap. You connect the hot from a scope directly to the paper clip or copper tube. You do not need to hook up the ground from the scope. You put the scope on a .2 volts per division setting and notice the amount of 1K signal. Then you switch the leads to the cap from the signal generator and notice again the amount of signal. The side with the hot lead from the signal generator to the cap which reads the most voltage is the outside foil....mark that end of the cap with a black or red dot or mark.

Another way to test large caps if you do not have a signal generator but have a scope is to simply connect both ends of the scope lead to the cap and grab the cap with your hand really tight. Essentially, you are the signal source. Then reverse the leads from the scope and grab the cap again. You will need to have a scope with at least a 2 mv per division or less to measure this.

My website is tweakaudio.com. I hope to have a circle soon on Audiocircle and will have tons of tweak info there too.
grannyring's avatar
grannyring
6,518 posts
 
Great website Rick and I will contact you thru your site as I am going to try some of your ideas and products.
volleyguy1's avatar
volleyguy1
343 posts
 
Salecetric

I can not argue with your list as it is more or less the same except 1-2. Why do you not have the phono stage #1? The signal is more fragile.

The Duelund's not having enough life or sparkle on the top end. This is something I have thought a fair bit about and why I took my time replacing the last cap in the phono stage. The vintage cap had more air and life.

The reality is this is something created by the cap... Resonance.

My crossover circuit was 2 2uf's in series for the tweeter. I ended with not two CAST's but CAST followed by VSF. It was that very sparkle you talked about.

For coupling I have a CAST and VSF together. (in some spots)

It is strange on this thread I seem to be the only one mentioning the extreme difference in energy of the CAST over even the VSF. Just way more alive and dynamic.

In comparing the vintage tubes to the Gold Lions 12AX7's. My first reaction always is the vintage tube has more "air and sparkle". In time I can hear the vintage tubes are resonating and wash out voices of richness and much prefer the new Gold Lions. On the downside without the resonance the Gold Lions will reveal a singer struggling to hit a note but I know it is real.

The lack of "air and sparkle" of the CAST (and I agree with you) is in reality something the cap is not adding...

This comes back to the Clarity White Paper saying 30% of people prefer high resonance caps. The majority prefer low resonance but still this means there is something we like about high resonance parts. (air and sparkle)

In theory if reducing resonance was all good 100% (or almost) would prefer it.

All this being said am I the only one who thinks not only is the CAST extremely natural in tone but the dynamics are on a total different level even than VSF. Maybe losing some resonance induced sparkle but gaining a MUCH more alive sound. (big energy gain)
salectric
755 posts
 
Volleyguy, it appears we are hearing the same things with the CAST caps. As good as they are, and overall they are the best sounding cap I have ever used, the CAST caps are not perfect. We both notice less air and sparkle compared to some other caps.

It appears you think this character may be a good thing, that the CAST has less "resonance" and is actually more accurate. I don't know about that. Perhaps comparing the copper CAST to a silver CAST would help to clarify the situation. Even better would be a fair A/B test against a direct wire. If done right, this would tell us whether the copper CAST is lacking in air and sparkle or simply telling the truth.

In any case, just speaking for myself, I am not all that interested in trying to understand the physics behind why one cap sounds different from another. The only thing that matters to me is how it sounds. Even more to the point: how it sounds in my system. We are just hobbyists, not manufacturers, so we don't have to worry about how something might sound in a different system, only our own. From that perspective, I will stick with my observation that when I use a CAST cap I notice less air and sparkle. In practice all that means is that I need to balance out the overall tonal balance through other means, I.e. Another cap somewhere else or perhaps a resistor change somewhere to offset the effects of the CAST.

I would definitely be careful about using too many of any single type of cap in one's system because the colorations become much more obvious. This applies to CAST as well as any other cap type.
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,250 posts
 
Good discussion gentlemen and again another example of the pure subjective nature of this enjoyable hobby. Volleyguy I don't know if many have actually compared CAST-VSF s you have patiently done. I just went straight to the CAST and glad I did. Sal has far more DIY experience and hands on expertise than me and is familiar with numerous brands of capacitors. I respect his observations regarding the CAST's relative lack of air and sparkle and certainly accept the premise that nothing is perfect.

All I can contribute is this, I listen to live jazz in smaller venues quite often (10 visits to clubs the past 2 months) I've been doing this for close to 25 years. A good friend happens to be one of the better drummers in our area (I even listen to him practice sometimes). I feel that I have a good ear for drums, cymbals and most instruments due this type of unfiltered exposure. IMO the CAST capture the air, harmonic tones, energy, sparkle and what ever else you want to call it exceedingly well. Sheer honestly and realism wih cymbals nearly as I hear live and up close with the natural attack and decays intact.
We may differ on our various impressions here but as for me , I just believe that the CAST provide astonishing realism. They compared to other capacitors probably aren't "adding" artificial enhancement but instead are keeping it real. My 2 cents worth.
Charles,
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