Justube2
"With the caps now, I think I would be contended with either duelunds, vcap or jupiter cu".
Agreed once you reach a level of these caps you are getting to one's preferences, system synergy which someone might have to hear for themselves.
If one reads yours Grannyring or mine one can guess we are all looking for something slightly different?
Mine is natural and dynamic. Duelund gives me that in spades. (especially CAST and RS) VSF were not as dynamic. (but natural)
Now Jupiter I can not imagine a quieter cap. Just crazy quiet. To me unnaturally quiet! Do they deserve a 13 rating by Tony Gee I would say yes. Are they as good as RS, not to me. (both rated 13) Could they be if bigger? Maybe? |
Grannyring
Sorry for any confusion my experience with Jupiter and Vcap Cuft is only in electronics. (still have them in 2nd system)
My speakers are all CAST and VSF caps and inductors.
No plans to even test other caps there although I did try Sonicap and Mundorf Supreme and Silver in oil in the speakers.
I like Mundorf Supreme more dynamic than Sonicaps nowhere near Duelund level in natural. |
One cap I am re-testing is the VCap Cuft. I have installed in office system and the amp is sounding better than it did that is for sure! Really deep bass. |
Anyone compared Western Electric to Duelund wire?
Interesting results to post soon. (about synergy) |
Mikirob
I do check into Jeff's place a fair bit. Excellent site!
We both have horn speakers and 3 or 4 years ago on here I was asking Duelund to build autoformers and Jeff had them made for him. Which I was glad to hear! (and envious!)
I have mentioned in the past wanting to hear Western Electric caps to compare to Duelund. (I have not) A best of the past vs. best of today kind of thing.
My favourite amp is a 7591 style amp like the one Jeff uses. That amp was left all stock and my work was done on EL84 amps until firmly past the vintage 7591.
I was surprised Jeff (another big Duelund fan) used Teflon wrapped wire? (not all natural like cotton or Silk)
I am glad to hear he has compared to a cotton wrapped Western Electric which did not surprise me at all he would like better than Teflon wrapped.
I use Duelund Silver 2.0 which I really like but have not compared to copper Western Electric. (which I could use no matter what in office system over plastic wrapped wire I have now)
My whole top amp is Duelund caps except Jupiter in phono stage. (room reasons)
I bet it is a matter of time before Jeff mods his MacIntosh amps. I purposely bought amps at the start of this thread that were not hugely collectible so that when modded I was not destroying resale value.
I can say it is a jaw dropping improvement from vintage caps to Duelund. In my amp I have VSF, CAST and RS and all are good!
I just want one of those Duelund Autoformers like Jeff has just too much form me at this time. Then I will have no vintage parts left in the crossover!
Has anyone compared though directly Duelund Silver 2.0 to Western Electric. (which is MUCH cheaper!) |
Plus I have not heard much comparison of Duelund's new Silver hybrid to CAST.
In fact those new cap values would do my whole amp! |
I am looking at getting some of the Western Electric wire just want to make sure I get the correct one. Any advice? Tajacobs? On ebay and does colour matter? I want to rewire internals in speaker in office as well which is getting much better. (all those Jupiter, Jensen and VCaps in the amp)
I have been reading the thread on audiogon on the Western Electric.
Cable has always been kind of the joke of the industry. Crazy money and if you are feeding the signal through crappy crossover parts it is just crazy.
I have always wondered about Western Electric and not just the wire. They seemed to be on to something. Many of their parts still regarded as at the top. |
I know some of you guys have compared WE to some very expensive cable.
I will be replacing lamp cord! (office system speakers I bought really for the Alnico tweeter) Paul Klipsch did some nice work with the Klipschorn's but did not believe in the effects of wire. (using lamp cord!)
It is interesting the compression drivers are copies of Western Electric and he did use AlNiCo magnets. So for sure he knew of Western Electric wire.
I went from stock lamp cord to Duelund Silver 2.0 and it was much better but not as much as a single cap in the amp. (well maybe I should say different kind of improvement) |
I should say the internal wires are lamp cord. |
Anyone tried the Solid Western Electric wire?
I did not care for the Duelund solid copper compared to Silver. |
Just curious why not 14ga? |
Thanks Rob
I did see on one of the threads someone say it was rubber and cotton 14ga and more? Silk and cotton 16 ga and smaller?
Is this why Yazaki-san maybe went with the 16ga? |
You realize what you guys are saying?
WE wire is wrapped in tin. You have people fussing over how pure the copper is in wire .99999 how many 9's and you are saying wire wrapped in tin is great?
People have been getting silver solder. Why WE wire is wrapped in tin.
This is what gives us all a bad name. Audiofools.
I am not saying the wire does not sound great but you have opened a can of worms! |
Grannyring I am getting some for sure but I am not sure if you guys realise what you are saying? On many levels.
Tin!!!
So much for purity! |
The WE wire is on it's way.
From someone who said they did not care for the wire it has an amazing mid range. That is a pretty big deal!
WE 16ga vs. Duelund Silver 2.0. (slight cost difference)
Loser goes to the vastly improving office system. Both are needed! (assuming as many of you do WE is very good)
Who wins guys?
I must say it is fun having a second system. (if it is close to main one) |
Michael Fremer article on capacitors and resistors.
Question to Micheal?
What importance do you think to the use of built in elements in products? Is there a need of exotics parts?
I am not sure what you mean by "built in elements". Need for 'exotic parts'? Some people swear by certain brands of capacitors and resistors for instance that are far more expensive than commercial ones. I sat through a demo at Ypsilon in Greece where designer Demetris Backlavas swapped out but ONE capacitor in a very simple amp circuit he was working on and the sonic difference was ENORMOUS. So yes, I believe the designers who listen through, part by part, get the best results. |
Micheal Fremer on best system he ever heard in life.
The same system where his quote there was an ENORMOUS difference in one capacitor.
Best system ever heard in you life?
A fellow in Greece who was kind enough to fly me over to hear his system. Enormous Cessaro horns, custom made, driven by Audio Note SET amps, Continuum Caliburn, Ypsilon preamp and phono preamp DCS digital. The key was an enormous listening room, custom built and treated. The room has a balcony!!!!! It produced a life-sized picture that was coherent, transparent, musical and believable as no other system in my experience has matched. Mine is great, but in miniature. I'm in a relatively small room. It's enveloping and creates a good illusion but his illusion was on a scale you'd have to hear to believe. |
I had mentioned synergy before.
In the office system I bought a pair of Klipsch Heresy's. I bought them for one reason the Alnico Tweeter. My Lascala's have Alnico dual phase mid range driver. (most sought after only made for a matter of months)
I thought the Heresy's were awful.
I put a bunch of unused caps in the amp. VCap Cuft, Jupiter Copper foil and Jensen Copper Paper tube.
All are very low noise caps.
I can not believe the difference! The mating is fantastic!
Heresy's known as shouty, mid range, no bass speakers. Jupiter caps are VERY quiet. Jensen caps tip sound to bass.
Anyone who has followed this thread would have heard especially Grannyring and myself seeing Duelund vs. Jupiter or other caps slightly different. (on which choice)
I think this has much to do with system synergy.
These are all good caps and can have to do with which application.
This same amp got smoked with my all Duelund crossover Lascala's.
I think a couple more tweaks and this office system will be fantastic. I best part was the speakers were not even bought except for spare parts! (after vesting so much money in Duelund I wanted spare compression drivers) |
Tonight going to fire up the soldering iron!
Finishing amp getting ready for this WE wire! (loading in VCap Cuft and Jensen)
You guys have me pumped. |
Caps all installed.
Hope it sounds better, it was sounding very good!
Just waiting on Western Electric wire then if all goes well looking forward to doing the third amp in Mr Yakaki-san's choice of caps.
Plus building the recommended interconnects. |
So far it is not all good...
Resonance is the key and I think we need just the right amount.
Vintage caps have it in spades. But lack detail off the midrange.
New caps lower resonance but this takes some life out of the midrange.
I know exactly how it was wired to go back if needed after WE wire is here.
My head says there is a lot of improvement my heart is not so sure...
Still needs hours to settle. |
When replacing the vintage caps (first 5) in the amp the improvement was huge! EVERYTHING was wayyyy better.
The last 6 now in. Just settling in. Every time I have done this the first cap replaced in the circuit seems to make more difference.
I will wait till hours pile on. (any comment) These are already burned in caps. (used)
I agree with Rob in the sense if buying equipment make sure designer has similar tastes or timbrel listening. |
Thanks Charles I will be! (following my heart)
All new caps in amp and just killed it! Unless it improves drastically and I doubt it I will start putting back in some vintage.
I suspect it is the line stage now Jensen and Jupiter and it was Jupiter and vintage. (which was a magical mix)
All vintage was too hard to listen to for long the mix was just stunning!!! All new and the amp sounds just dead... Worse than all vintage really...
Sound is very hifi now. I still have all the vintage needed to go back.
There is a difference in vintage quality just like today. Vishay ERO the West German manufactured ones seem quite good and the ones the designer seemed to use in critical spots.
The bubble gum ones hand made (but in a bad way) are very mid range and noisy. |
Charles this sure gives a look at what a designer goes through!
Some of this big (meaning caps) improvement, so more of the same will be better, right? No unfortunately not always... |
Grannyring
If it is better it is better.
I am only kidding about the pedestrian look.
I got the WE from the same seller you guys did. |
Well the WE wire is here.
I sure hope it brings me incredible audio joy! |
It sure does not look special... Kind of scary no marketing or warning of something that could be big... |
Update on one of the vintage amps.
In the past I had posted of two failed Duelund capacitors leaking and a few Jupiter caps very fragile leads breaking.
Now in one of the amps in for service one of the Jensen capacitors has gone bad and was arching inside the cap.
I live in the same town as tube amp builder who does excellent work! He changed the amp from cathode biased to fixed bias. The amp although sounding GREAT was unstable. (he is not a fan of cathode bias?)
So this is his opinion (on the cap) not mine and I heard it and seen it on his test equipment. The cap had gone bad inside.
He is not a fan of "exotic" caps as he calls them. (To me they are great sounding to him exotic) From his point of view of having amps come in from all over North America for repair I can see why. He simply could not have the failure rate I have had. He has seen 3 of my exotic caps go bad out of 15 to 20 caps of mine he has seen. (3 or 4 others he has not seen) I am sure he could not have a failure rate this high!
All that being said parts connection did make it right.
I will have the amp back soon and with now 4 cheap (reliable) poly caps installed.
I am am going to listen and see about leaving the poly caps in or replacing them.
I suspect they will be replaced...
The only exotic so far with no problems has been VCap's. Although I suspect their are more machine made? Jensen, Duelund and Jupiter more hand made?
Not it exactly sure of the process?
This is not a rip on the exotic caps. I am for sure hooked! Even with the problems the sound difference is just way to big to ignore!
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On Jeff's Place and the WE16ga wire I still can not say which I like better the WE or Duelund 2.0 Silver? (It has been months!)
Each sounds different.
Duelund richer warmer and WE livelier in the midrange possilbly a more "real" sound midrange.
So far I would say Duelund overall. (Richer more complex)
In in my bedroom system I really liked WE. Smaller system and having a great midrange in a small system is critical. Have not even tried Duelund there.
Am I going to spend the vastly larger amount of money on Duelund Silver in the bedroom? No.
I will rewire speakers internally to WE in the bedroom system as well.
WE is a great low cost tip from Jeff's place!
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I am trying to catch up on Jeff's Place blog. I really enjoy his excellent blog!
I am glad to hear he compares the mods he does with an original.
When I started I kept the best sounding amp I had original, always having a reference for a stock amp for mods to not come up with the false idea that everything I did was an improvement.
As Jeff was saying sometimes it's frustratingly not.
My original stock Fisher is now no longer stock. It was the amp that caught fire and melted an output transformer. My modded vintage amp in main system has long ago passed the stock vintage amp.
The Fisher was cathode biased. My tech guy who builds tube amps and repairs amps from all over Canada and the U.S.. A lot of expensive gear. Just love visiting him to see what is in for repair!
He changed the cathode biased amp to fixed bias. He did not like the circuit. He thought unstable. No argument here! (Chew up tubes catch fire the only thing it did well was sound great and very quiet)
A repair mans point of view will be different than ours.
I can not comment fully the change in sound but for sure sounds different. Technically the amp already running much cooler and seems much more stable!
So far the amp sounds stable and cooler, like it is running. The 4 Solen caps I suspect not helping either. Artificial sound. (Grainy that I am not used too)
It is my new project amp to see if I can push it passed my best modded amp.
My gut feeling is the phono stage is going to be much quieter. The one area I have not been super thrilled with. Phono stage was too noisy on other vintage amp. (Jupiter caps helped immensely there)
I have no idea of the differences in fixed vs. Cathode biased for sound?
I do have to say I am wayyyy more confident that the amp is stable!
My modding ability is extremely limited to part for part replacement, and a set of ears.
Now back to following Jeff's blog and his excellent crew!
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Charles if I remember correct you are in the triode camp? 300b?
triode amps have always intrigued me.
i know sometime I will have to try one! |
Charles nice to hear from you!
One of the main ideas on this thread was to put in perspective the improvement for the $ each of us spends.
Before this thread I would hear how great something was or was not. But no "great" per $ factor. (Which is key for most of us)
Duelund caps I would recommend them all the time.
Is Duelund Silver 2.0 (version 2) better than WE16ga? I suspect that depends on each system.
At $27 a foot and $32 a foot for 3.0. That is over $1k for 10ft of speaker cables.
i could not recomend someone spend that if they are like me and $1k is quite a bit of money...
I was never in the mega $ speaker cable camp in the first place.
At at the start of this thread I had tried bi-amp'ing (SS) with 2 $5k amps. Total waste of money to me!
When I realised I had a $5k amp running through a $1 tweeter cap, I knew this needed to be thought through.
replacing those $1 caps with even $50 of Mundorf Supreme's in the tweeters would have been VASTLY better money spent. (Then bi-amp'ing)
my guess changing the caps is 10x+ (Maybe 100x) the improvement for 1/100 the cost!
Is Duelund wire worth 20x as much? (As WE16ga) It is not where one should put their money first IMHO.
I would replace every cap and inductor first. Some tubes are Big Bang for the $ as well.
I am so glad Jeff has an open mind! He is not solely in the vintage or new camp? I imagine his blog is of great value to many of us?!
i have to get caught back up! Feel behind. Duelund Silver bypass and this hybrid cap.
Those silver bypass caps are in the values I could use... Hmmmm?
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I feel much better now reading that Jeff says
"It comes as a complete surprise to me that changing one capacitor or resistor in the circuit of the MX110s makes as much difference as I hear when swapping between entire components like preamplifiers or amplifiers in my hi-fi systems".
It is nice to have someone say the same thing as I have been saying indicating it is true or we are both crazy!
My one Fisher is back with 4 changed coupling caps, one new resistor, 4 power tubes now the new Tungsol vs. EH 7591 and changed to fixed bias from cathode bias.
My repair guy did not know if I would be able to tell the difference? (for real)
I do not even recognize the amp!!! If you said to me it was a totally different component that would be MUCH more believable.
In the past I would have been quite upset!
The amp was loaded with Jupiter, Jensen Copper Paper tube and VCap Cuft caps. It sounded absolutely awesome! However it has had running issues...
More or less this amp was left over parts not making main amp which is all Duelund with Jupiter in phono stage.
The 4 caps are Solen caps. The repair guy knew I would not stick with them. They are rated around 6 is my guess by Tony Gee.
The caps that came out Jupiter rated 13 or Jensen (not rated) but in my guess 12 or more.
In in most of my years of testing it has been a cap at a time test.
This kind of a change is just not doable... It is just so far from where it was one can not reference.
My guess is the tubes are just a tiny change. I have changed tubes and yes some are better than others but a tube difference does not equal a cap change. (Possible the different resistor)
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Been an interesting evaluation going down! Really the first I have done.
When you go down the biggest thing I notice is the lack of "alive" tone.
How easily things can sound like Hi-Fi. Really the same as I thought all those years ago on this thread.
All foil can sound real, even vintage.
As someone mentioned on here a long time ago your weak link is very important.
Now I am just figuring out what to buy next.
Moving up to CAST (2nd set on tweeters from VSF on main speakers) or Duelund Hybrid coupling caps over RS.
Best bang?
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Jensen Paper Copper and Jupiter caps back in. Just one poly Solen cap left.
Waiting on Partsconnexion to get more Silver Bypass caps. (Duelund)
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I have been trying to find some info on the Silver Bypass Duelund caps?
Looks like I am going to have go back and read this thread as I can not find much about them?
For me they would not be bypass just the correct value. (At least the values originally sold)
So waiting on them to be restocked in original value. Another strange thing is there does not seem to be a hurry to stock them?
The bypass caps are not going the way of the Alexander line? There is not lots of chatter but Tony Gee really liked them?
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Hi Dave
Good to hear from you.
The new clarity cap you were saying reduces impedance and phase anomalies common in metalized film caps.
Is it these phase anamolies that I can hear in low cost metalized caps that make sounds that are not natural?
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Hi Eric
Would you like to sell the .047's?
I have never heard the Clarity caps but they have a good reputation.
I do have quite a bit of experience with Jupiter Copper Foil.
I find bypassing is inconsistent as far as improvement so not at all shocked at your findings.
Thanks
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I will not being doing a test of the Duelund Silver bypass caps.
My understanding is Partsconnexion will not restock the larger sizes.
Unless Eric sells his. :) |
Oh Vietnam!
Likely a little costly in shipping. I am from Canada.
They might be collectors items though. I bet they will just sell of remaining stock of .01's? |
Hi Dan
How do you like the Oppo 105? I have the 95 and like it a lot. Great for the money!
Exactly how I feel about the Duelund RS.
I agree with Tony they are a no brainer and should be on any trial list. Then you can decide if you want to move up the expensive Duelund list. I have Duelund VSF, RS and CAST and all are great.
RS is my default go to cap... (which I just bought)
I have been cutting spending but still doing some and think if I want another set of CAST caps for the main system. Tweeter caps. 2.2 or 2uf. The VSF then go into bedroom speakers. I planned my own hand me down system. It was pre planned so I did not have to almost give away used caps.
So when/if I replace VSF with CAST the bedroom system gets new VSF so two improvements for money spent!
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Hi Dan
I agree with Erik I would go easy and much slower. :)
I would start with tweeter caps and getting a feel of the caps and what they will/can do for you.
My one amp I had to make changes to make more stable. I liked the sound of it a lot but was leary of it!. It caught fire once and had other problems.
My repair guy who builds tube amps recommended going from a cathode biased amp converting to fixed bias. (he did not like the power supply) He did that changed 4 coupling caps and one resistor. (one Jensen cap was arcing)
So he took out all the mates and installed 4 Solen caps.
Less change than you are talking about and I did not even recognize the amp!!!
I changed back in the Jupiter and Jensen leaving only Solen and I have a Duelund RS here not yet in. This is in a bedroom amp and all the caps I did not use in main system went in this amp. Jensen Copper Paper, Jupiter and VCap Cuft.
I am trying to judge just power supply change and one resistor and even that is a lot.
The changes you are talking about... Holy Cow! You will not know what did what!
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Grannyring I believe it on your binding posts. :) For me as well maybe the biggest improvement was removing a connection to the woofer with direct wiring. It was crazy how much was lost.
You got me thinking and over the holidays I am going to experiment in removing my cheap aluminum connectors that join woofer, midrange and tweeter with some Duelund Silver wire. I bet a big improvement!
I was reading Jeff's post on the new Duelund cap. Can someone clarify if this is his first Duelund CAST in electronics? I believe it is. I always wondered when he was going to get around to this.
He talks much about vintage caps but I have not found any vintage cap that can compete with Duelund except in the midrange and at great loss of dynamics.
When this thread started I was not a vintage guy at all. I had to admit loving the vintage tone though when I heard it. Duelund improved it in every way.
I do not think he should think of sound as vintage vs. Modern. Steen Duelund had concluded it was natural vs. Plastic. Vintage just used less plastic but not vintage magic.
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Grannyring thanks I will email you later this weekend? Sunday and thanks again |
The retest.
Years ago I tried in my tweeter caps CAST and VSF and played around and found that I like in series CAST followed by VSF.
After this test I will be ordering either another set of CAST on sale or RS series. The now used caps go into bedroom speakers. (of same value)
I was quite surprised at the time I choose the CAST followed by VSF over two CAST. |
At the time I thought two CAST's were too quiet. There was no doubt which cap was technically the best. Yet...
Years ago I thought two VSF although nice tone were dynamically flat in comparison to CAST.
Tests went best in series.
1. CAST followed by VSF
2. CAST followed by CAST
3. VSF followed by VSF
The test had no consideration for cost.
At the time I wondered if in time tastes would go more toward CAST strengths and re-rank. I know people then thought I might not even hear the difference but they sounded a LOT different.
Thoughts at the time were about resonance. Yes the VSF resonate more but this can add life at a cost.
Test material is The Last Waltz Bluray
i use the hair stand up on my arms test. Might not sound sophisticated but as a hobbyist I am in this for the thrills!
Separation of the band as back up singers is a big difference. Much better with CAST
Female voices better for sure with CAST, well all voices.
This test is as tough as it was 7 years ago?...
The resonance adds life in the VSF. Metallic instruments sound more metallic.
Still tough today, if two CAST's are better than CAST/VSF and in this case I don't think so. Maybe CAST followed by RS betters the VSF and the VSF goes to second system?
In series I find the two separate styles compliment each other.
I have run into a bit of a road block for improvement on main system. Grannyring has sent pics of maybe my last area of significant improvement my lousy connectors.
I have VSF midrange cap and VSF woofer inductor, both I am sure would be bettered by CAST but out of my budget and I do not have a second home for them to go to like the tweeter caps.
I wish I bought both in CAST, still.
Well holiday project is now second system internals to be wired with Duelund tinned covered copper 16ga (WE 16ga as speaker cables) plus a Duelund VSF or RS cap added. Plus elimination of crappy connectors.
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Duelund caps and wire coming at month's end.
One amp is in repair shop and I was wondering how many of you have plastic or paper bobbin output transformers?
This thread started me hearing (and not owning vintage) tube amps thinking how much more real they sounded than new tube amps I had heard.
My one vintage amp (one in for repair again) melted down a output tranny. So I took it apart when replacing it. Paper bobbin.
The repair guy says it is mostly plastic bobbin now?
To me I could imagine this being a huge issue!
I have literally almost no plastic in my main system and soon to be in second system. |
Was wondering if you knew what your output tranny is paper or plastic? |
Hi Eric
According to Steen Duelund the plastic does matter? Affects tone?
Any thoughts on that? |
Duelund 16ga and RS Caps in now just have to install in second system. The wire has a nice smell. After doing one system and a lot of trial and error I hope to make the improvements much quicker. |
