Cartridges: Complete Scam?

Dear @frogman : Not only me but any human been is more sensible/sensitive to timing than neutrality, this is not what I’m trying to explain and that you took " letter by letter " of my post when that was not my intention.

I don’t disagree with you because I have ( not so many as you ) LP with timing " problems " that are easy detected but around the 90% of recordings the timing is just aceptable.

Now, my question to you was : which are those speed stability limits for we can’t detect any timing problem?

Example: if my TT instead to spin at 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm: can we detect it?.

Now, if what you are saying is that perfect timing is only in live music then in audio always we have a timing problem reproduction that exist even if we can’t detect it. My question to you is still the same: which are the limits? because audio is an imperfect medium.

Btw, in the whole recording/playback process the analog alternative is more prone to timing problems than digital.

Anyway: which are those speed unstability limits? zero tolerance? because the timing problem in  audio always existed and if in the future nothing change allways will be there. We can't avoid it. So, which your conclusion about? because even in the LPs where you like its rhythm exist a timing problem ! ! ! 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I'm not as knowledgeable as either one of you guys , but I'm pretty sure
my old ears can hear that much of a difference. They are just sending messages to the brain which I know can .

Dear Raul,

I am surprised that such an experienced audiophile as you seem to not differentiate between incorrect absolute turntable speed and speed instability.  First:

**** Now, if what you are saying is that perfect timing is only in live music ****

That is exactly what I’m saying and I don’t understand why that should surprise anyone.  A live performance will always have more rhythmic impetus, “groove”, PRAT, whatever one wants to call it compared to a recording of same and will be, by definition, “perfect”.  A recording may get very close depending on the quality of the equipment used to record/playback; and some listeners may be more sensitive than others to timing issues.  Btw, I don’t agree with your comment:

**** Not only me but any human been is more sensible/sensitive to timing than neutrality, ****

I have known many audiophiles who are much more sensitive to changes in timbre (bright, dark, harsh, smooth, etc.) than to timing issues.  As I mentioned, and with respect, you seem to be also.

**** Example: if my TT instead to spin at 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm: can we detect it?. ****

Probably not.  However, I can tell you that I know individuals with “perfect pitch” that can detect very very small changes in absolute pitch in music.  Let’s use a more realistic deviation from perfection; say 33.34 vs 33.33.  This may be heard as a very slightly faster/energetic performance of the same music; but if it remains STABLE at the “incorrect” speed it is not perceived as particularly problematic.  But this is not the issue; this is not what we are talking about.  SPEED STABILITY is the issue.  The problem is when the turntable’s speed does not remain locked on one speed and is constantly changing as is sometimes the case.  Even changes in very small increments are problematic.  This causes a very audible reduction in the rhythmic impetus of the music and the expressive value of the performance.  

**** Anyway: which are those speed unstability limits? zero tolerance? because the timing problem in audio always existed and if in the future nothing change allways will be there. We can't avoid it. So, which your conclusion about? because even in the LPs where you like its rhythm exist a timing problem ! ! ! ****

I have no idea what those limits are; and frankly I don’t care much.  As always, the numbers only tell part of the story and I prefer to let me ears tell me whether A or B sounds more like the real thing.  The rest of your statement we can agree on.  Again, recorded music will always fall short to some degree of the standard set by the live performance of the same.  As you say, “We can’t avoid it”.  So what?  I have always felt that this was a given and this doesn’t have to mean that recorded performances can’t be enjoyed limitations and all.  We try and minimize the problems with good equipment choices and setup and then we make the choice to either listen to and enjoy the music or focus on the equipment and it’s inevitable problems.  

Everyone should watch this video to realize that adults can not develop perfect pitch. In Europe only 1 individual in 10 000 has a perfect pitch. You must be a child to develop perfect pitch. Even if you’re an adult musician you can not develop perfect pitch! This is very interesting phenomena. I would strongly recommend to watch Rick Beato’s video linked above, you will be surprised.

The statement that audiophiles are able to hear slightly different in pitch is bulls****it. You must have been trained from 2-3 years old to develop perfect pitch, it’s about the ability of the human brain. People with perfect pitch never makes a mistake when in comes to identify notes, chords etc, they just hear it and identify it like you can identify colors. Most of the professional musicians does not have a perfect pitch!

Dear @frogman : ""  I don’t understand why that should surprise anyone.   """. Again you took my sentences word by word. No, I'm not surprised with, all we know that reproduction of music vs live MUSIC is only a heavy make-up clown " and that's why i posted: " We can't avoid it ".
So what?, well we can't compare it in exactly way.

In home audio neutrality comes from what each one of us are accustom to and what neutrality means for each one of that almost always is different. Of course that there are people that likes more and use words as: warm, brigth, dark, etc, etc. These does not tell us that we are not more sensitive to timing, even some of us don't identify the word " timing " and its meaning but this does not says we are not more sensityive to timing than neutrality. Neutrality depends on the room/audio system items and set up when timing is independent of all that but that TT speed unstability. In the other side brain can accustom to little unstability speed and takes it as part of the music and we can't detect it because of that.

We can detect is that unstability is not only constant in the shor time and in high degree and some times even the kind of music we are listening and the SPL at what we are listening. No rules here.

You said that you don't have limits but what you listening is normally different as what I listening and other people listening and i'm refereing on what my brain is aware to detect and how is detected. In this regards  each one of us is a unique/individual.

Regards and enojoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.