Cartridges: Complete Scam?

@frogman well, i do not exactly following your full conversation with Raul , i can lost in all those posts. You're right about pitch instable, same with off-centered record pressing, we can hear it, yes. But  i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm. And for those of us who're not a musicians even pitched up or pitched down records sounds just fine, i want to pitch up some of my records, remember those Technics turntables with +/- 8% pitch control? At the same time what about those recordings when you clearly hear that instruments are not tuned right to each other, or slightly off beat and it's all about the quality of the musicians, you can't help it with the turntable. It's hard to be a musician when you can hear all that imperfections. Probably studio time was too expensive for some of the independent bands and they're decided to leave it like that on the record. And finally, i think quality direct drive turntables are stable. 

**** But i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm ****

I believe you are correct and I said as much in my response to Raul.  

I said in my first post on this subject that I think this is the most misunderstood topic in audio.  Another example why this is so:

Yes, bad intonation (pitch) from the musicians is a bad thing, but, again, has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.  Many musicians play with less than good intonation, but this has no relevance to the issue of rhythm and how that rhythm is reproduced by the playback equipment.  And of course as you say you “cant help it with the turntable”.  What is the point here?  The issue is simply whether the turntable will reproduce the rhythm of the performance accurately or not, musical performance problems and all.  No?

Dear @chakster : """  Most of the professional musicians does not have a perfect pitch!  """

Could be but I don't know for sure. What I found out with some professional musicians ( some friends of mine, including a Symphonic Director. ) is that over years their ears losted accuracy and the frequency range goes more and more limited/reduced. The main issue is not because they are older gentlemans but because oever the years they are exposed to extremely high SPL for continuous time.

"""  But  i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm. """

As you I think is almost imposible to do it. Our brain perceives that tiny unstability but what we listen in that TT condition the brain can't be sure if it's by speed unstability  or for other room/system characteristic.

Dear @frogman : """  is sometimes identified by audiophiles by some turntables being perceived as “livelier” than others. ........................................................... it is one of the things that causes preference of one turntable over the other depending on individual sensitivity to these problems. """

I think no one can be sure on what you said because there are to many parameters invloved down there. An analog rig is not only the TT and that " livelier " or " preference " can comes to from: cartridge, tonearm, IC cables, phono stage, that LP recording process because the speed unstability can comes from there and not from the TT it self, analog rig set up, etc, etc,
To aisle a problem of TT speed stability must be do it in a " scientific " way through measures in the short and long intervals of time or can be identified when that unstability is a gross one.
The other subject is that we have to take our time to be trained in our room/system to identify that critical " timing ". Not an easy task.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear Raul,

Again, more dancing around the issue; or, to be generous, misunderstanding.  What we are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the “losted accuracy” of frequency response in the hearing of SOME musicians.  This has nothing to do with timing issues.  The relevance of this “cliche” is as much truth as the idea that musicians don’t care about audio. 

**** To aisle a problem of TT speed stability must be do it in a " scientific " way through measures in the short and long intervals of time or can be identified when that unstability is a gross one. ****

Once again, you are putting all your stock in the measurements.  I know what my ears tell me.  You think that I am deluding myself.  That’s fine, but I would respectfully suggest that when it comes to how audio relates to music and it’s many layers of nuance that you don’t seem to be digging deep enough.  

Happy Holidays to all!

Dear @frogman : What I said about professional musicians was not in reference to timing subject. Was only a fact that I found out, nothing more than that.

The whole comparison between audio and live music is a " sea " of diferent characteristics  and that's why, even that live music is my reference, I say that we audiophiles will enjoy better the listening experiences in our room/system as nearer that system is to the recording.

I think that exist one advantage on what the recording microphones pick up during process and that is " detail " due that good microphones have a very wide frequency range and " support " high SPL. In these regards the mics. could be better than our ears but even here is very complicated to have precise conclusions.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.