Considering switching from Audio Research to PrimaLuna, troube with VS115 amp


Hello everyone, I have question that I hope some of you either can answer or have an opinion on. Ever since I was 17, I have always wanted to own Audio Research equipment. I’m 56 now, and finally was able to fulfill my life long dream. My first acquisition was an ARC LS15 pre-amp bought here used in mint condition. I paired it with a Vincent 331MK hybrid amp also bought here used in mint condition. The resulting sound was impressive. After that, I started looking for an ARC amp I could afford. The resulting search found me an ARC VS115 amp also here in used, awesome condition. This is where my problems and my doubts started. Upon hooking up the amp to my system, a tube in the left channel arced and blew a resistor. I had to take the amp to an ARC dealer and he installed a new resistor and suggested I buy all new tubes from ARC for the amp. I did and when I got back home, I again hooked up the amp and immediately upon turning the amp on, I started to hear thumping sounds coming from my left speaker, then, two left channel output tubes started to glow a very bright orange, and then white smoke started to rise from one of the tube sockets. I immediately turned the amp off. I called the dealer and he suggested I mail the unit back to ARC. I did and I am now waiting to see what they say.

During this time, I started to search out other brands and came across one called PrimaLuna. I have watched their videos and seen them compared to ARC equipment. Their build quality seems to be superior to ARC and the reviews are over the top. I am looking at their Dialogue Premium HP amp and their Dialogue Premium pre-amp. For what they cost, considering how they are built and supposedly sound compared to units costing 3 to 4 times their price, they almost seem too good to be true. Anyway, my bubble has been burst, and in simple terms, I am considering jumping ship and going with another company instead of ARC, despite all those years of drooling and waiting.

My main question is this, is there anyone out there that either owns PrimaLuna or has had experience with the equipment and can give me their opinion on owning and using it. Then, my second question is how does PrimaLuna really compare to other high end equipment such as ARC. Kevin Deal in his videos on PrimaLuna makes a very compelling case for the equipment. In one video, he compares an ARC LS17SE to the PrimaLuna pre-amp.

My last question is in regards to my ARC VS115 amp problems. Anyone have an opinion on what is going on with my amp or a VS115 in general. For those of you who want to know what else is in my system, I am using KEF 104ab speakers, a Cambridge Azur 752BD Blu-ray player as my CD player, Morrow Audio Cables and I am considering getting the Sony HAP-Z1ES music player for my digital files.

I greatly appreciate all who take the time to comment and give their opinions. I will be glad to answer any questions you may ask or provide additional. Thanks for your help. Steve.


128x128skyhawk51
parsons
With due respect, feels like you're going to all this trouble to invite people in to double blind, then kind of invalidating a major part ...
Actually he's made it clear that the event won't be double-blind. He wrote:

... play a track on amp A, move the source and speaker to amp B, and listen.  Simple.  Same cut.  Same volume. Don't even turn off the amps.  Instant.

I suspect that the difference will be quite noticeable, so double blind really isn't needed like you do with cables and tweaks.
 
"Level matched. Double blind too if you can figure a way to do that. I want the change from amp to amp to be instantaneous as the mind is not as sharp as people think." 

I agree, our minds aren't so sharp when it comes to sonic memory. If you or someone else figures a way to incorporate the double blind-double thanks!

Any chance that amazing Avenger setup making an appearance? Hearing the PL with A1 gear/cables is always a treat. 






OK, double blind aside.  Those tube sets sound a ton different on their own, wouldn't most (all?) agree who have heard the difference?

I realize this is for fun, and I both respect that and am excited to see (read, I suppose) the results.  However, I simply suggest it's an even more interesting exercise to see how two manufacturers execute against the same output tube.  ARC made the decision to ship with KT150s for a reason, I presume, and I can attest that the PL didn't get worse with KT150s in the two I own (to my ears).

I suspect that there is a "it's not going to matter" in here somewhere, but I still think that assumption is unfortunate.

My uneducated self predicts one pre-listen stat alone...36.4 lbs. vs. 63.8 lbs...will predict the "winner" between these two specific units regardless, all other parts comparisons aside.
I have had it with sacrificial resistors. I don't even want fuses.

Give me a "bad tube" indicator, and nothing to do but replace the tube.
Primaluna gear was originally based on a Cayin TA-30 amp (which I had years ago) with the addition of Primaluna's adaptive auto-bias circuit (which is brilliant, by the way). Sound-wise, the Cayin was designed to bring back the glory days of tubes and channelled a vintage design, can't recall which brand. The transformers that they had on the original amp were quite good and the sound quality was not as vintage as the design brief seemed to say - the treble was pretty well extended compared to the old stuff.

They also ran the output tubes conservatively, not trying to squeeze too much power from them.

However, these were intended to be budget amps for middle of the road systems and their lowish power output (except the 70 watt monos) means you need fairly efficient speakers if you like "slam" and dynamics and decent control of bass.

So, Primaluna will work for you if your speakers are quite efficient and you will get best results if the speakers have a fairly benign impedance curve with frequency.

Oh, and the build quality of these amps is exceptional - I believe the factory in China used to produce military products.

The AR's are supposedly higher in absolute resolution and have the power to drive less efficient speakers to realistic levels. However, they run the tubes very hard and a lot of modern tubes are just not up to the task. I believe AR actually has to buy stock and do their own testing to figure out which ones will work without arcing over (CJ have to do that same thing) :) I have often wondered what it would take to reduce the operating point to a safe place for modern tubes as well as how much output power would be sacrificed...

I expect the AR amps have a lower output impedance, thus handling speakers with more complex impedance curves.

Additionally, the AR amps are a modern design rather than a copy of an old one with a few improvements made for reliability.

Don't shoot me, I am just musing :) We are talking about vastly different price points between AR and Primaluna, although age tends to balance the difference somewhat.

I have tried the Jolida (another decent Chinese brand) JD1000BRC amp and it runs the tubes fairly conservatively, but it just isn't an audiophile amp as it rolls off too quickly at the top and struggles to produce mid-bass in speakers that are almost purely resistive. Given the right speaker match, it could be an option though, and it is reasonably well made and easy to service and has a warm and friendly sound.

Rogue Audio amps are probably closer to the AR sound and they are a bit more reliable, from what I hear. They do also run the output tubes pretty hard.

I have not heard them, but I hear that the Bob Latino Dynaco based (VTA) 125 watt monos are very good and reliable amps indeed and they are quite nicely priced. http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm#M125

Many other tube amps from small manufacturers are just downright horrible copies of classic amps with cheap and nasty output transformers;  in some cases they include design errors and in others are downright dangerous. I have repaired many and added safety grounds, etc...