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DACs and bass response?

I'm auditioning dacs in my system. One (COS) was way to analytical, overall, but had very tight bass. Another (Aqua La Voce) is what some would describe as "musical"  and sounds  terrific in all aspects except bass. My cdp alone does better in that regard. I have monitors and no subs. Can I expect that dacs that are hyper-detailed will also offer tighter bass as a rule?
stuartk
mikelavigne
2,199 posts
 

bass in a dac is a somewhat complicated question. it can relate to multiple factors, including rack interface and power cords. and three dacs I’ve owned were quite high resolution, two with what i’d call ’hyper-detail’.......the Trinity dac and my current MSB Select II. that hyper detail did nothing to restrict bass. likely they did allow for super articulation. possibly some dacs do a bit of ’rounding’ and that can be perceived as having a ’heavier bass. but is that an artifact? or reality?

http://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/select-features/

but my experience with my current dac, the MSB Select II, really hit home on how much the power supply can affect the bass and the overall sense of authority and ease in the bottom octaves. when i first purchased the MSB in June it had only a single power supply; which powered both the analog and digital circuits. then in August i added a second power supply. i had to send in my dual single box power supply and the manufacturer used the case of that dual unit and added another case and put a single power supply in each; one box for the analog circuits, and one for the digital circuits. I now had two power supplies each with it’s own power cord.

wow!!

the effect on the lower octaves and overall ease and authority was astounding. a huge difference. nothing else changed. the level of detail increased with greater expressiveness and overall levels of information was better.....lower noise.....greater nuance.

is this surprising? maybe not. we know that power supplies are a significant part of the overall performance of all electronics.

the bass in my dual power supply MSB Select II now compares favorably with my vinyl and Studer A-820 RTR deck bass. those are my references.

maplegrovemusic's avatar
maplegrovemusic
1,113 posts
 
@worldwidewholesales What server are you using ?
shadorne's avatar
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shadorne
7,477 posts
 
Wow 800 psec of jitter would easily be audible. Even 20 psec jitter may be audible. This shows the importance of

1) A good modern asynchronous DAC that rejects the always present incoming jitter entirely - so you are left with inherent jitter of the DAC itself (for example Cranesong Solaris claims less than 0.5 psec jitter)
2) If you use a DAC that is not known for good incoming jitter immunity or rejection (perhaps a classic older DAC or something which just sounds good to you) then for goodness sake get Synchro-Mesh reclocker!

Be careful of asynchronous DACs that dont fully explain how they achieve a PLL. The very fact of gently adjusting the timing of a secondary clock to rapid fluctuations in the incoming clock can easily create low frequency jitter!! Some DACs have implemented a control filter on the timing adjustments that limit adjustments to less than 10Hz. Only a DAC that limits master-slave timing adjustments to BELOW the audible range (less than 10 Hz) can guarantee to eliminate all audible incoming jitter.

A poorly designed PLL may reduce jitter but create more audible jitter than a high level of random incoming jitter. The key is to understand that signal correlated jitter is much more audible than random jitter by several orders of magnitude. 20 psec jitter that is highly correlated could be much worse than 200 psec of totally random jitter. So a PLL may actually be a significant source of audible jitter!!! (sounds crazy but it is true)
shadorne's avatar
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shadorne
7,477 posts
 
Bass and power supply are linked in every way. This is because they share the same frequencies. The latest DACs are now using switched mode power supplies to great advantage at ultra high frequencies in order to get power supply noise far far away from the audible range. 

The weak link in any Linear Power Supply (no matter how massive) is that it runs on 60Hz (or 50 Hz) and this is a fundamental bass frequency!!!!!
stuartk OP
2,825 posts
 
@worldwidewholesales: RE: source, I plan to move to a server. For now, my Jolida cdp is no doubt, less than ideal, but this didn't keep the COS dac from serving up appealing bass. The difference between it and the Aqua were not subtle. What are you using for a server, BTW ? 

@shadorne: your technical understanding is way beyond me. I'm wondering if you could suggest some dacs that "limit (s) master-slave timing adjustments to BELOW the audible range (less than 10 Hz)". I will start paying attention to whether dacs I consider have switched mode power supplies. 

@mikelavigne: I wasn't suggesting that hyper-detailed dacs restrict the bass-- I was wondering whether they, in fact, might have the opposite effect. Sorry if that wasn't clear. 
   
 
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