"Arguing about exactly what is jazz is a dead end. If it was made after 1918 and didn't come from New Orleans, can it really be called jazz?
To deny Dave Brubeck's importance in jazz history is silly.
The silly thing is to say nothing after 1918 is Jazz. And no one is denying Brubeck's importance, just trying to decide just how important. I say not very, in the greater scheme. |
Funny you should mention Brubeck and Take Five. I attended college on a Band scholarship. The first time I heard it was my first night at college. My first night away from home. The guys in the dorm room next to mine played that LP all night. I was very homesick and feeling alone and I grew to develope a real hatred for "Blue Rondo A La Turk" They were hot shot trumpet players from the big city and really into jazz. Later we all became real close friends. I have on occasion been accused of being a trumpet player myself. Now take five is my wife's favorite music of all. It's on the local PBS radio station's play list, and everytime it comes on she yells, 'TURN IT UP'!! BTW, the drum solo on Take Five is one of the best in all of Jazz. It actually seems to be a integral part of the tune. A lot of jazz drum and bass solos, seem to be just a chance for the drummers / Bassists, to get their chance to play, and are a disruption to the flow of the music. |
I would not call him a Jazz Giant. He was / is not in the top tier of Jazz players. And no one looked more dignified than MJQ. As I recall there was some discussion back in the day as to whether Brubeck's music was Jazz. And those that said it was, contributed that solely to paul desmond. Something about no blues in it, or too 'cerebral', whatever that means. I think he was well suited to a certain segment during a certain time in our history. The cool college / playboy magazine crowd. Just can't see him in an after hours jam session with the greats. Concert hall, not club player.
Cheers |
"With all due respect, since when has venue ever been the measure of an artist's genius? Why in the world would playing in a concert hall ever make an artist a lesser giant than playing in a club? Were any of the classical piano virtuosos club players? Venue is a totally irrelevant measure to use in this respect. IMO."
You missed my point. Playing concerts does not make you a lesser player, BUT, all the greats did play clubs, esp in the early stages of their career. It's how they developed as players. The interaction with many other players and the imprompto jam sessions. The atmosphere!! MJQ is a possible exception, but they were trying to take Jazz in a direction Jazz was not ready to go. As an example, there are a lot of 'so-called' BLUES players that have never seen the inside of a Mississippi Delta Juke Joint!!!
Can't get the essence of the blues playing in london.
So, brubeck was ok. He didn't grate on my nerves/ears, BUT, he didn't move me either. Good background music that is very good to demonstrate high-end stereo systems. Just as an aside, I purchased most of my LPs / CDs after reading reviews by professional reviewers. Esp in my early days before I developed my own prefernces. Out of 700+ Jazz CDS, I own one Brubeck CD. TIME OUT. Tells me the pros didn't like him that much either.
Wanna hear real Jazz?? Listening to Louis Armstrong's 'Ambassador Satch' as I type. BTW, he used to play houses of ill repute! :) Essence of Jazz!!!! :) |
Orpheus10:
'your astute knowledge of jazz'
hahahah far from it. I have very limited knoiwledge. I just find the music and the players, esp the players, to be very interesting. And in this day, the music has to be defended against the crowd who feels that anyone, can make any sort of noise, and call it Jazz, and get away with it. I can't stop it, but I can call them on it when I see it.
Today's play list was: (1) MJQ Complete Prestige & Pablo Recordings 4CD box set.
(2) Cannonball with Milt Jackson -- Things are getting better. This is the lineup; Adderley, Jackson, Wynton Kelly, Percy Heath and Art Blakey. All are stars in their own right, All listed in the fine print on the back of the CD. Only in Jazz!! I don't have anything with Timmons as leader. I am sure he is on someone's record in my collection.
Cheers! |
Orpheus10:
"Onhwy61, if you think it's jazz, then it's jazz. While the music I brought into this discussion is "definitively" jazz, recently, music from other parts of the world that incorporates our jazz, and possibly our musicians, is more interesting than the music currently originating here, according to my taste."
No, it's not. Unless you are into Relativism. If you are, then all discussion about anything is pointless. As far as world music goes, check out the liner and booklet notes on Duke Ellington's 'Far East Suite'. He described "world" music perfectly. The word he used was a certain 'sameness' to it all. I felt vindicated :). This was after his far east tour in 1963. We would call it the middle east today. |
O-10
"Rok2id, a jazz collection of the artists you have, would be incomplete without Bobby Timmons. He did a lot of work with Blakey, and I'm sure you have tunes composed by him that were done by other artists."
I have his stuff that you mentioned, being played by Cannonball, Oscar Brown Jr and Art Blakey. I listen to some of his stuff today on amazon. I will have to correct this oversight. Speaking of doing other folk's stuff, do you know of anyone, who is someone, during brubeck's music?? |
Sabai:
"they all liked what I was doing. Charlie Mingus, Miles Davis, almost all of the guys that really had made it and were experimental people, experimenting, liked what I was doing. So what do I care if some critic doesn't like it? I'd care if Duke Ellington didn't like it."
Experimenting is great. It moves the music forward. Parker and Dizzy and others tried and created Be Bop, and when they looked around the entire genre was following them. Who followed brubeck and his experiments with time. That's the difference, between being a good player and being a Jazz Giant! |
Sabai:
"The group played in jazz clubs in every major city and toured in package shows with such artists as Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzerald, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and Stan Getz. The Dave Brubeck Quartet repeatedly won top honors in trade magazines and criticÂs and readerÂs polls. In 1954 Dave BrubeckÂs portrait appeared on the cover of Time Magazine with a story about the jazz renaissance and BrubeckÂs phenomenal ascendancy."
Back in the late 30's or 40's when all the greats were alive and well and in their prime, Benny Goodman was declared the KING OF JAZZ!! Nuff said! |
Charles1dad:
I agree with everything you said, and it was well said. Thanks for your input. Love your system, and your pictures, I have Ella singing in a club, with Benny Goodman and Duke Ellington on the front table looking mesmerized! 1949 NYC. |
Sabai:
First, this is not an argument. It's a discussion. I made a promise not to argue anymore and I have kept it. I don't even think you and I have a disagreement. Let's start over.
The OP started a thread about Brubeck. I weighed in with a short story, as did a few others. So far so good. Then the OP refered to Brubeck as a JAZZ GIANT. I am not sure what that means to him or you, but to me, it means the guys / gals who sit around the table on the Mount Olympus of the Jazz Universe. Just a handful. And in my opinion, Brubeck will not be there. He will be with the other 99% of the Jazz world, good player, well respected. Made some CDs that were very popular. Brought pleasure to millions. Had fame and fortune. Had a very nice career.
GREAT is not the word at issue here. JAZZ GIANT is at issue. My Ford Fusion Sport, I think it's GREAT, but as GREAT cars go, it does not hold a candle to the Ford Model T. The model T was a GIANT.
So what you and I think is fun to talk about. The guys on MT Olympus are put there by forces way beyond us.
The 'sameness' thingy was something O-10 and I talked about some time ago. He is into 'world' music. I just wanted to pull his chain and used Ellington as support for my position.
Everything else I said as pertains to Jazz clubs and atmosphere being important to Jazz development, I stand by it. Sadly, a lot of those nurturing enviroments have disappeared. As with all things, social conditions play / played a major role in music, and those conditions have changed. That is reflected in the music today.
Cheers.
|
"Nice calm smooth jazz. Very good for background music during dinner conversation. It does not have annoying loud parts that disrupt conversation."
Review of an Oscar Peterson CD on Amazon. He gave it 5 stars. Shows how we can all say the same words, but our ideas and concepts are eons apart. He was complimenting Oscar!! I am sure he thinks of himself as a 'Jazz aficionado'. |
