I mainly listen to classical and jazz - mostly trumpets and violins, with the occasional piano, viola or bass guitar. A couple of my friends have been suggesting to me that my ensemble lacks bass and having a subwoofer will address it. My setup includes a 2 ch. NAD C365BEE integrated amp, Wharfdale EVO 50 loudspeakers (pair), and an Oppo BDP 105 Bluray player as a CD player. The setup is in the living room, with three walls, and the fourth side open to the dining room. The living room itself would have been 18' L X 12' W X 18' H = 3888 cu. ft, but the fact that it opens up to the dining room makes the entire space more like 40' L X 18' W X 12' = 8540 cu. ft. Would I benefit from a subwoofer and which one should I get? Budget $1000 or close to that.
"Good advice Zd. Can you explain what you mean by a reference system?"
Listen to as many systems as you can, and pick one that you could live with for a long time. Then use that system as a template/reference in building yours. Basically, you're setting goals.
"If the sound of your piano is what you're after, then you might consider studio monitors."
I have no idea how you came up with that one. Given the OP's goal to getting more bass out of his system, why would you suggest a small speaker? It doesn't make any sense. They won't be able to play the lowest notes on a piano. Going that route would be taking a big step backwards.
"They typically are designed to be neutral."
As opposed to what? Who designs speakers to not be neutral?
"I would not put any merit in the dealer's comment about your Oppo player versus a CD player."
How do you know that the dealer is wrong? You could very easily say that its your comment has no merit. There's several reasons why you would want buy a CD player over the Oppo. Unless you did some side by side comparisons, you're guessing again. You can't have opinions on components you've never listened to.
All, I welcome everyone's opinions and they all have been very helpful to me. In fact, I have been re-reading this post over and over as it has a lot of useful content. I have learnt a lot from this discussion and it has clarified my ideas. I intent to put a couple more observations after getting the sub and then we can call this a day. Thanks to everyone for their time. SG
For some reason, you're not fully reading my posts. You're picking and choosing to come up with replies that sound reasonable.
"The OP said in a previous post that he has moved past the subwoofer issue. He's further up the frequency range now. Besides, nothing I said would preclude the use of a sub."
The OP said in his previous posts that he had a lack of bass. He was able to work with what he currently has and has been at least, partially successful, if not more so. What would be the reason for recommending a small, bookshelf type speaker?
"Neutral sound is not the goal of all speaker manufacturers. Some are designed to boost bass, others roll off the treble early, some are single driver designs that can never be neutral. This should be obvious to you."
Fine. Give me some examples?
"I didn't say the dealer was wrong. I said I would not put any merit in his comment implying that a CD player is inherently better than a BR player. Others might; maybe you do. I can have opinions about all sorts of things. If I didn't you'd have nothing to complain about."
About the merit issue, fair enough. I thought you were talking in absolute terms. About having an opinion, I was just stating a fact. If you have never listened to any particular component, you can't have an opinion on how it sounds. That's just a fact. It applies to everything, myself included.
"I'm not sure what I've done to bug you so much, but this is just an open forum for folks to express opinions and share information. Maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously or personally. Surely you have something better to do with your time."
I get that, and I apologize for taking such a direct tone. But I find some of your recommendations very frustrating. Its like you read a bunch of stuff on audio but don't have any real experience applying it. Don't take that the wrong way, though. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, its just how it looks from reading your posts. I'll also admit, that I may take certain things seriously. But its just because I hate to see people make many of the same, expensive mistakes that I've made myself. I know what I'm doing now, but it was a long, costly journey to get here.
Quick update - subwoofer arrived along with "reference" music. Reference music was a huge disappointment. Had to go back to my Bill Evans Waltz for Debby hi-res from HDTracks. Cable not here yet so cannot set subwoofer up but just one comment - it is much bigger than I thought it would be, and I'm glad I did not order the SB12 Plus Ultra, as it would have probably resulted in divorce papers :)
The build quality is fantastic - beyond my expectations. it's heavy too. I ordered the piano black finish by the way. Will let you know how it sounds after cables arrive.
Finally set everything up today. I was confused about the cables (got a single one from Blue Jeans, then had to order a Y adapter to connect to the stereo outputs). Also, you cannot connect this to Pre 1 on the NAD as there is a hard connection (bridge?) between that and Main, and no sound comes out of your front speakers if you take it out. NAD has a handy Pre 2 with a volume control on its own :) Having figured this out, next challenge was the settings on the sub itself. Initially, the presence was not felt or very minimal. I put the frequency to LFE, the Phase to the other end of 180 degrees (0 degrees ?), and the volume on both pre and sub to max. Now it is making its presence felt :) I can distinctly hear the bass guitars on it, much more pronounced than I ever have. This is precisely the aspect my friends had complained about, Current placement is left of left front speaker, pointing towards center of room where current listening position is. SVS recommends putting it in the corner of the room, which I can also try. For the moment, I am happy, but I will need to keep tweaking and start measuring. I also changed the cables between the Oppo and the NAD amp with a Blue Jeans stereo cable, separately, and that had already improved the sound level at least. I am now a believer in subs and am already looking forward to a second! Also, I am wondering if an audiophile grade rack (not a bank breaker) would further improve anything. I need a new rack for better organization, but was wondering about an audio one. Thoughts welcome,
I am getting my turntable back and will conduct some digital vs audio tests in the near future. Also, I am thinking of adding a tube phono stage to the setup - thinking of a Bellari VP 130 which has good reviews for bang for buck. Thoughts welcome.
After talking to SVS support, I realized that the crossover was too high, and that phase apparently is not something I need to worry about. I learnt about localization. I still have my crossover high and I don't think it is that localized - I suppose every room is different and tastes differ as well, I am liking it with the crossover high at least with piano, as the low frequency piano notes are now a lot more audible and I like that. Not sure if this is the wrong thing to do but I am ignoring that advice.
One interesting test I tried was to shut the main speakers off. This allowed me to independently test the effect of the subwoofers and adjust settings until I got what I liked the most. This was an useful test for me,
This is the problem with having no experience, along with the commitment to not get any because you think you're a scientist. All you do is list other people's opinions on stuff and select only the factual info that you think is important, while not addressing other issues because you simply don't know how to deal with them. The only science that applies in your case is psychology.
"But, in general the higher the low pass filter setting the easier it becomes to localize the sub."
"I've read many people say that the sub should not call attention to itself and you only realize it was in the system after you turn it off and miss its effects."
Pick one. In the first paragraph, you're telling him set the sub up so it can be localized. In the 3rd paragraph you're telling him to set it up so it can't be localized.
"Measuring will help you set it. My understanding is to set the phase control such that it maximizes the bass response. Doing so will let you turn the overall level down and give you some headroom; you are effectively taking advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers."
Maybe you should actually try it. The logic in that paragraph has more holes in it than a French Poodle that was hit with a 12 gauge shot gun. Give him some headroom? That implies that he has none to begin with. How do you know that?
"you are effectively taking advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers."
That doesn't even make sense. You take advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers? Scientist, my ass.
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