Do you think you need a subwoofer?

You're right, Doug....

I don't own an equipment rack or isolation system yet, so I actually have to place my turntable down below in the dining room and use long IC's to get it away from LF energy right now. When notes hit those room mode frequencies, the panel in my fire place starts to buzz and the windows vibrate.

So, it's not really worth it(using TT) for me until I get a good rack and room treatments. Getting up to run downstairs every 20 minutes or less is beyond silly.

But, having said all that, the difference a sub (or subs) make in the texture of bass and midrange is astounding. My main speakers are similar to yours in FR(~40-36kHz). Though, in reality, I'd bet you've got a lot more 40-60Hz output than mine.

Anyway, everything is much more fleshed out. There's just so much more "body" to instruments and vocals it is surprising. Not in a "slam" or "punch" style, but the actual resonance of the instrument. Tonality and texture have jumped into the next league.

I can't speak to spatial information yet because of my room problems, so others will have to jump in for that. But, suffice it to say, I cannot stand to listen to my mains anymore without the subs. They sound weak and anemic in comparison.

Pretty surprising considering two weeks ago I thought they did a terrifc job of producing deep, tight, bass for horns. I still do, though nothing close to what I've got now.

But, since you've already said in your system description that the Salamander Synergy Triple 20 is "Too resonant for a serious audiophile, but looks nice in the LR", it's a safe bet that you'd have to get a new equipment stand or a lot of isolation platforms, blocks, rollers, pads, etc. Then, there's the inevitable room issues to keep you occupied for a good long while, especially with only on spot for sub placement.

Aaaw, screw it - go for broke! That's what this silly hobby is all about - spending money and chasing that last 5% of performance. You'll never know what your system is truly capable of until then(just joking).

Dear Doug: There are many critical subjects/issues for to have a better quality sound reproduction at home. The integration of two subwoofers in a true stereo way is one of the most critical subjects and where any body can hear the great improvement that we can achieve.
Almost ( before this thread ) no one on this forum talk in " deep " about this sub subject.

We all always are talking and looking for a better quality sound reproduction through our systems: TT, cartridges, tonearms, phono preamp, VTF,VTA, etc... , I think that the sub subject is more important and is time to care about and enjoy all their advantages.

No, I don't think that will be worth to add one sub to your system: you need " room ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Darkmoebius,

Thanks for the insights. Like you, if I can get another .03% for just $10-20K, I'm all for it! ;-)

Our rings-like-a-bell Salamander Synergy is (somewhat) isolated from the trampoline floor. Each of its eight feet is sitting on a heavy duty sorbothane hemisphere. The rack and all the equipment on it push the sorbothane to its designed load limits, so its benefits are pretty much maxed out. This does help, but a quieter rack on a solid floor would help alot more. I'm afraid those will have to wait until my next lotto ticket comes in.

Raul,

Thank you for the honest answer, which I sort of expected. :-( With all the timing and phase integration issues, it only makes sense to have a sub for each main speaker, as close as possible. Otherwise you're risking sonic mud. Your description of all the work you did to place your subs was very eloquent.

I'm sure the one-sub, bass-is-not-directional idea was invented to sell subs for HT explosions, while keeping the decorator happy by not putting two more large boxes in the middle of the room.

If one sub isn't worth having, we'll just have to wait until the room grows a bit. :-(

It's funny. The cubic volume of air "seen" by our speakers is pretty large, 26 feet x 18 feet x 7.5 feet. Apart from the low ceiling that's probably more space than many speakers get. But the room layout is restrictive. There simply is no space near the speakers for subs, and no other way to arrange the room.

Some day...

BTW, is Hurricane Emily missing you? I hope no one close to you is affected.

Regards,
Doug

Doug

Dear Doug: Tks God Emily pass through our country ( twice ) with not many damage like everyone waiting for. Tks for ask.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Doug,I know you are a knowledgeable guy(you too Paul),but I'd like to add some thoughts,as we have some common denominators re main speaker bass output and sub integration.

I have a speaker that extends,extremely cleanly to about 40 hz in room.Maybe a bit lower.My intent(since I previously owned Infinity RS-1b's and IRS-Betas,both stereo sub set-ups,BTW)was to integrate a deeper bass response,without affecting the overall presentation of my current speakers,which I LOVE,and will not consider moving away from!

I only wanted to add frequencies below 35 hz.I actually have my sub crossing over at 24 hz,a gentle roll off above that freq allows a perfect blend with my Avalons.

For practical reasons(as well as financial overkill)I opted for a REL Stentor series II.Placed in the right corner,just behind the main speaker.A little playing around yielded fine results.This has really turned out to be a wonderful configuration,in my room.I was not looking for audiophile bass.I wanted a "subtle" underpinning of low frequencies,while retaining the stunning timbres of my "sealed box" Avalons.I feel that although my big boy Infinities were more power oriented designs,my current set-up obliterates them in seamless perspective,openness,stage presentation and amazing timbres,while implementing a very natural deep bass integration,but NOT bass overkill,which many hobbyists are addicted to.I still can't believe what a dumb move Avalon made by discontinuing such a fine design( easy load,sealed enclosure with stunning mid bass and dynamics,external crossover,massive build,beyond newer models,more weight etc).Well I guess WAF of smaller designs is better for bottom line,but my money is on the Ascents I own.As a matter of fact,I have been told by two industry "higher ups",independently,these were the best speakers Avalon ever made.I don't know,but really don't care.My point being,to pull just a bit more from them,without breaking the bank.Something I'd already done,with all my stuff,anyway.

Now I know Raul loves the idea of a stereo integration,and I'm sure a second sub will benefit me,but it just ain't happening.The performance,currently is SO strong that to my way of thinking,the second unit is not worth it (financially),if you don't have a very large room,and are getting a high level of performance,with one.

Before Raul begins to "rail" at me(I still love you,Raul),let me say that I called Sumiko,before adding the sub.I was ready to go for two(stereo).They felt that since my speakers had superb output down to 35-40 hz,and since my room was only 22.5x13x8,the "second sub" was not a "Real" necessity!

As of now,I'm thrilled,as I think you can be be,since I know you are very capable.I also think your B&W's are similar in output,and presentation to my speakers.Best of luck!!