Does the first reflection point actually matter??


Hello my friends,

So please read the whole post before commenting. The question is nuanced.

First, as you probably know I’m a huge fan of the well treated room, and a fan boy of GIK acoustics as a result, so what I am _not_ arguing is against proper room treatment. I remember many years ago, perhaps in Audio magazine (dating myself?) the concept of treating the first reflection points came up, and it seems really logical, and quickly adopted. Mirrors, flashlights and lasers and paying the neighbor’s kid (because we don’t have real friends) to come and hold them while marking the wall became common.

However!! In my experience, I have not actually been able to tell the difference between panels on and off that first reflection point. Of course, I can hear the difference between panels and not, but after all these years, I want to ask if any of you personally know that the first reflection point really matters more than other similar locations. Were we scammed? By knowing I mean, did you experiment? Did you find it the night and day difference that was uttered, or was it a subtle thing, and if those panels were moved 6" off, would you hear it?


Best,


Erik
erik_squires
for the OP

Are you sure you have well determined the 1st reflection points? have you treated all 1st reflection points? meaning the 1st reflection at the ceiling, at both side walls, behind your listening position and off the floor?

ime, even just treating the side walls, then removing the side-panels, makes a tremendous difference. but the magic happens when all 5 first reflections points have been dealt with.

as the post prior to mine mention, make sure your panels are thick enough with good fiberglass or real material used from the likes of GIK. carpets actually make thingrs worst cause they absorb upper mids and treble, but do nothing in the bass and mids. ideally, you want your 1st reflection panels as thick as possible (mine are 8 inch thick). the goal of room treatment is to acheive even decay (ETC) at all frequencies, but carpets will make just the opposite (will absorb the highs, but do nothing in the bass therefore it really doesnt acheive the goal of even decay at all FR)
ok, after reading the OP’s. he’s full of cough cough
clueless dude when it comes to acoustic. hahaha.
I suspect he read Toole "studies" then drink the cool aid. worst, you think you understand room acoustic now.
Eric, yes first reflection points are a "myth" like you say. you can sleep soundly now.

EDIT:
" Wow, @lemonhaze you misread my original post and misread my "preaching to the choir" post and now are all mad about both.

Let’s just agree to disagree and move on."

I guess I did too eric misunderstand your OP. you begin the thread with "1st reflection is a myth", then finally go on to admit you know close to nothing to "should noobs buy a mic or ask experts at GIK".

Understanding the basic of room acoustic honestly took me a good week of reading, asking experts at gearslutz, GIK, in order to simply understand the basics of it. I wasnt sure if I should trust GIK alone, so went my own way and must have read at least 100 hours on room acoustic subject. Gik are mostly right btw. I personally think they sell too thin panels however, DIY is much much much better value for money if you want to create a FRZ (free reflective zone). 
ADMINISTRATIVE ALERTS

murphythecat has been ignored due to the use of word salads to belittle others. 

Please ignore it without fear of being impolite.

This concludes this alert of common sense and good manners.
I've found treating first reflection 'zones' to be very beneficial in my 6 x 4.3 x 2.7m (L/W/H) room.

Many other things come into play of course. Optimum speaker positioning for best sound balance is fundamental and should be determined before adding treatment IMO - the latter should not be used as a bandaid for lazy positioning/toe-in etc. 

I used experimentation to determine what sounded best to my ears, propping up panels with stacks of books or whatever else I had handy so I could move/orientate panels and then listen.
I found too much absorption on the side reflection points over-damped the sound. I opted for Vicoustic Wavewood diffuser/absorbers in that area, which sounded much more balanced than my thick DIY absorber panels.
Treating the ceiling reflection 'zone' between the speakers and listening position with eight 600x600mm diffuser panels provided one of the most profound improvements in clarity and image focus/stability.
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/2229#&gid=1&pid=1
I found too much absorption on the side reflection points over-damped the sound. I opted for Vicoustic Wavewood diffuser/absorbers in that area, which sounded much more balanced than my thick DIY absorber panels.
That is good to hear! I love your room!
As you say the "Vicoustic Wavewood" is not the same as absorbing panels when they reflect more of the higher freqencies sound on most of the area.

I look at your pictures. And that mat is great for just that. To tweek how much "over-damped" sound we like to have or not.

As we know the floor mat does nothing for the first reflection point on the floor but it acts as a thin absorber that it what it exactly is.. So it absorb only the high frequencies (she the link on the subject that I posted earlier)

So if you experience "over-damped" then out with the mat. If it is to lively in with the mat. :)

Another observation is that low bass is radiating omnidirectional so those low frequencies are radiated behind the speakers. I see great corner bass absorbers. But there is also thin foam that will not help against that the bass is reflecting from those surfaces. Instead those foam will only take hi frequency reflections and also contribute towards "over-damped" feeling. Maybe remove or replace with thicker absorbers.

Is those cool white 3d diffusers the "styrofoam" or other material?
(I never had any experience of them and it is great to hear that they work in that material in that case)