Endgame Vocal+ DAC Help: Terminator Plus 12th vs. Chord DAVE vs. Holo May vs. Weiss502.
tl;dr: Read title. I like vocals with spacing, depth and atmosphere. VOCALS. I have a small, shitty space - one side of an closed porch; very near-feild computer-setup. Consider myself a whore for detail. Was surprised to find detail-praised DACs to be harsh (e.g., RME ADI). Want thick, dark/rich, vocal forward, no loss in detail. Hate thin, harsh, and smeared/muddy sound. Julien Baker. Hold my hand and mentor me.
The atmospheric, depth of field, concentration stuff like this: https://youtu.be/rNEZlRgebwQ is something I love, but, without lyrics, I lack emotional engagement.
Setup (shitty near-field, no choice):
Audio Streaming Services or Youtube to
BeQuiet! PC Build - USB out to
Topping D90 MQA (to be replaced)
to Better Cables XLR
to Benchmark HPA4
to Classe' SIGMA AMP 2
to Wilson Audio Duette 2's
Headphones: Hifiman Arya
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Ok, I always feel guilty asking for help; still, finding any advice otherwise is difficult.
I'm looking to get an endgame DAC; I have the budget for about $20k worth of gear, if it's blow-me-away sort of stuff. I've read and watched virtually every review (about 20 or so reads; about 20 or so youtube reviews, each). I can find on these (and other) DACs; so, I feel somewhat equipped with the general perceptions of each.
Still, I'm not sure how these will best suit my wants for a DAC.
Best I can tell, each of these DACs have their own camps of support, and each comes with some distinct, common-to-review, characteristics:
Chord DAVE: Bright, Atmospheric, Big, Depth, Mega Detail, Harsh on Femal Vocals at times, but other than that, I've read nothing but cum-stained reviews for this ugly thing.
Denafrips T+12: Smooth, Medium Dark, Juicy, Rich, Big, Atmospheric, Not as Vocal Forward, Changes the sound but in a good way*, Some say it backs off the lead vocals when other vocals are present.
Holo May: Smooth, 'Correct', Neutral, Big, Vocal more forwardish
Weiss502: Rich, Juicy, Studio Master Tape, Less Color
*I do not care if the DAC changes the music - most the artists I love seem to be TERRIBLE in the mixing/mastering dept. Like TERRIBLE. Why every artist doesn't listen to their masters on every level of dac-to-speaker combo with particular emphasis on the sort of setups/playback their target demo has absolutely boggles the mind.
I almost exclusively listen to slower, guitar/piano-based, female-vocal heavy music (e.g., Julien Baker - a lot of Julien Baker). So, I'm looking to get a DAC best suited for that sort of music.
Essentially, making this (I know, youtube, but I love this recording) sound as good as possible is what I'm after: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlVp9W6LvTQ
That skinny vocal mic in the Tiny Desk concerts has a level of detail I love.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZdnq5tN5vI
I'd like to preserve that sort of detail, but the vocals could be a touch warmer/fuller/juicier.
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Here's a bit of background experience and taste-to-product preferences with which I am aware:
I have auditioned the iFiDSD Pro, have owned the Matrix X-Sabre I, the RME ADI-II, and currently use the Topping D90 mQa. Of the 3 (but only after I gave the strange idea of burn-in a try), the Matrix was my favorite - I think because of the spaciousness of the sound.
I do not have experience with FPGA or R2R dacs.
I consider(ed?) myself a detail whore ever since hearing the Elton John (self-titled) album in SACD - some 20ish years ago - the vocal isolated parts were really, really pleasingly detailed. This was played over a Marantz sr7007, the same year's Marantz SACD multi player, and with a Rotal 1075 AMP feeding BW 600 series floorstanders with bi-wired silver audio cable.
However, when listening to the RME ADI on my youtube favs, I found the whole thing absurdly detailed - but, fatiguing and harsh at times. I realize some of this is source - youtube. I keep referencing the RME ADI because, compared to the others, it was a detail winner, but, to my ears, was harsh and a tiny bit thin.
So, perhaps I am not the detail fiend I thought I was - I'm actually not sure.
I can say that I love the sound of the microphone used in the PASTE Mag concerts - that crispness that seems to pick up significant detail gives me the right emotional connection. Again, making this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlVp9W6LvTQ - sound as good as I can is what I'm after.
End of the day, I think I am looking for the most engaging dac for vocals - I am definitely a vocals whore, and a sucker for good, sad lyrics. I HATE anything muddy, congested, or blurred, and, after a lot of paying attention, I seem to be sensitive to harshness and listening fatigue. I realize detail and harshness/fatigue are often at odds. I have extended my budget to the absurd to tackle this.
At any rate, after literal years of research, this is where I am.
Can you help?
~Nick
Check this review of the Chord Dave from a reputable reviewer who was gonna buy a Terminator until he heard this. FYI this reviewer previously had a Matrix DAC in his reference system so may have similar sonic tastes. The model being sold by @shkong78 above along with the Scaler may well be worth a look. Best of luck. |
I have the exact system that @shkong78 just described. (mine is black with the big Chord stand for it which is nice in that it allows you to see the screen from your listening chair, but I didn’t pay $2500 for it). If you are stretching your budget you can put the power supply upgrade off. it is nice but the system sounds good without it. OTOH, you used the term "endgame" and the Farad power supply puts you right there. Absolutely. But you can do it in stages. I will say that you also don’t need an M scaler until you get a good front end. If you are streaming wireless, mscaler will exacerbate your lost bits. It was the M-scaler that told me I needed to upgrade digital. It sat there unused because it sounded like crap with the poor digital going to it. M-scaler is a great test of your digital supply. So to answer your question, I haven’t heard any of the others. I bought Dave based on how good a friend’s Qutest sounds and I wasn’t disappointed. But save some money to run good hardwired ethernet to a good streamer (I use innous Zenith Mk3). I also use an Etherregen switch, another $600. Jerry |
Wow. Thank you all for your responses. Here again, it looks like DAVE takes the cake. I am deeply concerned about anything sounding harsh - as the way the RME ADI sounded just plain hurt after a song or two. And, well, I feel weird about knowing the detail was the nest I'd heard and still getting almost immediate fatigue - even with headphones. I also know that the Duette IIs are known to have that brighter, clinical Wilson house sound and being in a small room with near field listening may make this even worse. That said, does anyone here have a DAVE and live in NYC or upstate NY? I live about 90 miles north of NYC. I want to hear this thing in my setup and would pay or do just about anything to have a night or two with it. If anyone, ANYONE would be so kind as to rent it to me (and is within reasonable driving distance), I will come to you, give you whatever reassurance you need (even if financial), and bring it straight back. I know this is a BIG ask, but one never knows how willing another person may be to help. FWIW, I am a former college professor, then a research scientist, and now have worked at usps as a mailman and supervisor. I humbly, humbly as for your assistance - I'll do pretty much anything to make you feel at ease with my brief want to rent/borrow. If anyone is willing to help, please let me know. |
As for harsh, Dave addresses that. I have never found Dave to be harsh but I have had other harsh DACs. Dave has a preamplifier mode and if you operate in the lower section of the scale you will experience no harshness. On the Qutest, Chord provides 3 voltage levels which addresses harshness. On the Dave, you and put it in preamp mode and turn it down to 50% or less and use the gain on your regular preamp--unless you are using Dave as your preamp. I never turn it up over -30dB on my efficient system. Dave does work very well in preamp mode and I do not use another preamp. Jerry |
I thought the Goldensound review was done very well when discussing the Chord and Holo dacs. In the digital world it’s sometimes confusing since it changes very quickly and today's star may be an "also ran" in the near future. The Chord products are a little hard to find and audition. An audio friend of mine has gone through a bunch of dacs and is very picky. He has had dacs from 2k to 15k and he settled on the Holo May KTE. I don’t know if it’s his end dac but is happy for now. |
