Dear all, to once again clarify the point:
These "agreed upon records" are about to establish a common ground for sonic evaluation and correspondence only!!
We need "records which everyone has access to for normal prices".
I have over 900 first pressings (... most of them first stamper..) in Jazz and classical from 1958 to 1968 - however I would never ask for including original vintage pressings here.
This is completely off point.
These records shall only serve to create - well: again.. - a common ground.
These shall not form the core of a collection, but shall reflect all aspects of recorded music and all aspects (..positive..) of recorded music sound.
Nothing else.
This package shall serve to create a solid ground to improve communication and make statements and sonic experiences one makes/have easier understood by other members.
So far I have seen several good proposals - each of them can serve here well.
And - yes, the originals sound "better" - but it doesn't matter at all in this context.
I believe we have a great chance here - and it might as well work for the digital fraction too. |
Dear all, a suggestion for a guidline/some ruling:
***may everybody interest to do so suggest 3 records.
All these records MUST be excellent recordings and all these records MUST be ready avaliable as re-issues or current pressing through retail stores or online merchants like Acoustic Sounds or similar (in other words: everybody has access to them). If the music has a universal appeal - it makes things easier to agree for most people.
For instance: I think a record like Muddy Waters: "Folk Singer" will find wide spread approval.
I would as another exmaple vote for R. Frühbeck de Burgos "Suite Espanola" on Decca SXL 6355 as an outstanding exmaple of a very dynamic orchestra with extreme live-like soundstage, shocking dynamics, subtle shaded colors and "breath", presence and a superb illusion of "being there".
Its readily available as re-issue from Speakers Corner for fairly low money.
This one belongs to the 10 best orchestra recordings ever made and features a wonderful suite of transcriptions for Orchestra from Issac Albeniz' Suite Espanola. The transcriptions were made by the conductor - so we are looking at a "definite" recording in all ways.
You are invited for suggestions.
Please keep in mind that we do need indeed most - if not all - aspects of music covered AND great quality in terms of the recorded sound.
Thank you, D. |
Dear All, again:
- only CURRENT available NEW records.
NO vintage first pressings - NO super limited edition high-price reissues (4-set 45 rpm etc).
It is NOT going for the absolute best sonic version, but for a common base.
We need an easy available to everyone for NORMAL price record.
If the recording is available on CD too ( even if that medium is dead and gone by 2011.....) - even better.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Syntax, not exactly the 3-5 records I asked for, but - as you know only too well...... - I would agree on almost all of them.
I hope many more Audiogoners will join here - maybe we can really establish something of use for everyone of us.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Stiltskin, can agree with those 100% - very nice pick indeed.
Whether the recordings are digital or analog is unimportant.
We are talking relative comparisms here.
******The only important facts and features are:******
* readily available by mail-order or retail shop for decent (set a mark: below $50/record).
* covering all aspects of music:
* classic orchestral, opera, chamber, baroque, concerto
* rock - heavy, metal, soft, studio - live
* singer-songwriter - male - female, studio - live
* jazz - bop, hot, cool, etc.
* pop - male vocalist - female vocalist
* choral
* specials soundtrack (NOT Casino Royale !!!), electronic music etc.
Going for 3-4 LPs in every sub-category will give ample selection and enough food for everyone.
We should take care too, that the records are "great" or "well recorded" (best is both...) all through. Not just 1 or 2 individual tracks.
I am sure we can do it.
Right now I am working on a list of mine and will it post here early next week for all to discuss and to illustrate my vision how this might look.
I have to check whether all I have picked is vaialble and will post this list with full detail.
Please keep on to make suggestions of your favourites.
Thank you,
D. |
Dear Halcro, dear Axel, please keep in mind:
- its NOT about the absolute BEST pressing but about the READILY NEW AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE pressing for below US$50.
- it is less about whether there are better test records. Its about a solid common ground for exchanging sonic impressions in a virtual world - i.e.: Audiogon.
- it should use records only, which are a pleasure to listen to NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE SONICS, but entertaining and "good" in the musical sense (thats why my lists will contain in teh majority LPs only, which have stood the test of time and will most likely sound familiar to most music lovers and audiophile .
I am glad to learn, that so far most contributors to this posts seem to have ideas going in the very same direction.
Looks like we can really put together a common ground for a much better communication about sonic issues and topics in the future.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi Axel, no worries - just a general reminder.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi Halcro, side one on the Royal Ballet set is dead on perfect phase - the other 3 sides are not. A common problem with many major classical recordings in the period from 1958 to 1963 - the first movement of Reiner's Scheherazade (well - not Reiner's but Rimsky-Korsakoff's....) and the "Heldenleben" by Thomas beecham are other good examples.
Agree on most everything you wrote, but the Weavers as well as Belafonte's first Carnegie album do indeed live up to their reputation with correct applied groove-compliant VTA. Then the space opens up and the audience becomes an audience and is no longer a waterfall.
But this is not about sonic differences in pressings and VTAs - sorry for the discourse.
Keep up the good work - I think we are doing fine.
Have a great weekend,
D. |
Hi, in general the DECCA-engineers had a more lucky hand regarding absolute phase in the recording equipment than their collegues at RCA and EMI.
Thats why on the best DECCA SXLs you will have - once your VTA is 100% (...99%) groove-compliant - a extremely convincing recreation of the actual recording location, its proportions, separation and localizing of individual voices and the sense of real air.
Ma mère L'Oye is good - but on a par with another 30-35 DECCA recordings.
Then the OSR is first rate rarely.
But this DECCA too may serve well.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Henry,
I am rather MUCH more into recordings then into tonearms.
The records were and always will be my center of apssion as far as audio goes.
Thats why I am so fanatica about groove-cut-angle compliant VTA.
And yse, - I beleive taht this is one of the many points why a common ground based on a few handful of reciords agreeed upon can serve us all so well.
Indeed Stiltskin - teh Belafonte is superb. I have 2 copys 1s/A1 all four sides. One of my favourits live-albums.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi Axel, do lower the SME V (I know - not that easy...) until your VTA is complaint to the groove-angle - no matter what pressing of the Belafonte set.
Once achieved the soundstage will open up and all a sudden the audience with lots of indiviadual voices in clear separation and many precise echos from the walls and galleries are there.
They are there.
If you do not hear them ....yet .... it is a matter of not matching VTA.
Every sonic statement about a front-end component - cartridge, tonearm or preamp - given WITHOUT precise groove-angle-compliant VTA adjustment is NULL AND VOID.
When Raul mentioned in another thread that he does not care about this, I knew instantly that all his sonic descriptions are a hollow joke and without any content.
If you do not care about compliant VTA - RECORD GROOVE COMPLIANT ! - then all your other efforts to improve your analog system are futile from the start.
Much lesser systems will outperform yours for a fraction of the money.
Fact of life - not my fault.
The sonic result then is always something by chance - not what is precisely engraved.
People may accuse me of being overly insistive on the precision in set-up, but you simply waste your US$, RAND, YEN, EURO and Pesos alike if you do not work precisely and if your VTA is not adjusted to the cutting angle with which the groove of the LP on your platter was cut.
Again - if you do not hear something the other does - it neither means the other is longing for enhancing distortions or has a strange sounding system.
It might very well be that his VTA is just precisely aligned - and yours is not.
Its a tricky game - but this was common knowledge in 1988 among all serious record collectors with audiophile orientation.
Talking about knowledge getting lost....
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Raul, absolutely no problem.
If you are used to and fine and fully satisfied driving every day with an old VW Beetle for pure enjoyment that is totally o.k.
No need to give comments on the technical aspects and behaviour in extreme driving situations about a Ferrari or Audi RS8 then - thats all I meant and I am happy to learn that you agree.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Axel,
ambient and individual details in a fairly quite audience are about the utmost low level information engraved in a record. All the other sonic details with higher level can and will long be present. The most tiny details do only come up when the polished area of the stylus is as close to 100% aligned to the groove walls as possible.
Logic - isn't it.
Time Out is readly available currently and gets my vote for one of the finest recorded and most interesting Jazz albums ever.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Raul, you are so right - thats why you hardly ever write a full sentence about any of my remarks .......
What a p(i)e(a)ce of mind.....
Regarding your "Ferrari" - you should consider having a driver training soon.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear all, sorry for the side-kick with Raul again.
I apologize.
It was off-topic.
I will supply my suggestions ragrding some of the records I can recommend serving for this project on tuesday.
A sunny sunday to all,
D. |
Dear Axel, I love "Graceland"!!
Haven't listened to "So" for more than 15 years.
Graceland does indeed have an excellent wide range of very different tracks and Ladysmith Black Mazambo's two pieces do add extra spice and most impressive a capella.
A landmark record.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear All, as the question about the "ultimate goal" just came up again:
- It is not about ultimate sonic quality of a pressing. We do need a careful selected group of records which shall serve as a "common ground" to link and desvribe all sonic impressions each one has in his system set-up or with inidvidual components.
While I am perfectly aware that usually the vintage first pressing are the better sounding, we must restrict ourselves to what is CURRENTLY AVAILABLE FOR EVERYONE.
So - no 1s/1s Reiner PInes of Rome (just as an example...), but instead the "normal" below $50 Classic Records Reissue with33 1/3 and on one record only.......
EVERYONE must have access to all these records by mail-order (internet) or standard audio retail shop.
This is about the chance to give each and everyone the very same tool at hand and thus creating one FIXED POINT to set the "lever".
While the discussion about sonic differences in certain records is fruitful and important to extract the essence, in the very end we are forced by reality to restrict the "common ground LP package" to what we can buy today NEW.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Axel, dear Frogman, I will illustrate in the list of my "picks" the point of the unamplified instruments in live space.
Stay tuned - I will be back tuesday night with my list and a few words about each record on it.
Cheers,
D. |
A suggestion from my side.
I have picked a few Jazz records first.
Don't expect any surprises here.
Each of these records has stand the test of time and each and everyone has outstanding sonic virtues AND does provide a very natural sonic envelope AND is very enjoyable to listen to for the music alone.
Furthermore each and every of these discs can serve in several different aspects as a benchmark disc.
I have done some research and right now - 07/07/2009 - each and every of these records is available as a reissue through the usual audiophile sources.
This is not a complete list.
However every of this records is a "test" record of the very highest caliber - even if it might not apparent at first glance.
- each record is avaialble NEW now
- through mailorder for everyone
- each record is US$50 or less
- most records do have a VERY similar groove angle - VERY IMPORTANT !!!!
I have added a few very short notes to each record.
In no particular order:
Jazz:
- Dave Brubeck: "Time Out" CS-8192 Classic Records
***** direct, airy, superb livelike-presence, stunning high-frequency percussion details, superb timeless music masterpiece, a groundbreaking record *****
- Miles Davis: "Kind of Blue" CS-8163 Classic Records
***** outstanding low level detail, extremely wide range of tone colors, perfect - yet hard to reproduce soundstaging of the group members, sense of rythmic flow and fantastic interaction between the musicans- the two saxophones in their very different styles in particular. *****
- Coleman Hawkins: "Today and now" AIPJ-34
***** direct, fast, live-like presence, true "physical weight" of each and every instrument, stunning dynamics and one of my all time favorites if it comes to demonstrate speed, pace, groove and energy. *****
- Oscar Peterson: "We get requests" V6-8606 Speakers Corner
***** perfect soundstage, very precise, natural and beautiful captured piano without any of the usual high-lightening, stunning, outstanding natural recorded acoustic bass which is VERY hard to reproduce in the correct balance towards the percussion set and the piano, superb tiny low level detail (Ray Brown's humming while he really goes into it) while dominant bass line often overwhelming everything on lesser systems. Fantastic album you will play over and over again because of the superb tracks and ease of the pieces. Timeless******
- Stan Getz / Jao Gilberto V6-8545 Speakers Corner Reissue
****** w/ Astrud Gilberto. No need to add any comments - do I ? *****
I would like to add either Oliver Nelsons "Blues and the abstract truth", Eric Dolphy's "Out to lunch" and most important Earl Hines "Once upon a time" - I am still checking if any of these 3 records is due to be re-released on vinyl soon.
All these records do come from times past.
All are "classics".
All are cut today with identical cutting angles - so we do not have to mess around with different VTA for each record.
All are recorded with very natural acoustical envelope.
All are recorded with fairly little miking and without amplified instruments.
I can supply much more detailed listening remarks on each of these records.
Aside from this topic here - I strongly recommend to get any of these 5 records in case you haven't done so.
They are timeless and great records of the last and this century.
We won't see any better coming our way in our life-time.
Classical to be added tomorrow.
Some Rock/Pop towards the weekend.
Please continue to supply some of your thoughts.
Please keep in mind that the records must be readily available, US$50 or less and - if possible - reissues from one of the major sources Classic Records, Speakers Corner or Acoustic Sounds.
This will help to keep the VTA almost identical for all these records and will MUCH improve the common ground aspect regarding the set-up of the front-end. |
Dear Tubetan, Headsnappin, Nilthepill ...... it doesn't matter and we do not need anyone telling us the sound on any specific record is this, that and those.
All this is to have the one single common piece in all systems - the record on the platter.
It is all about RELATIVE comparism and the option to discuss sonic differences with at least one common ground in the discussion.
It will always differ - regarding size of soundstage, low level detail, timbre, coloration, saturation of tone color, dynamics, impact and a few dozen other asoects.
This is not the point.
One some systems there will be "more" on some systems there will be "less".
In any case, you will know the difference is NOT the software - ergo:......
What do you want? Someone telling you that this and that is there on a particular record? This was done in legions in the 1980ies and 1990ies by several writers of the absolute sound and others. Did it help you at all?
Those descriptions were usually done with vintage pressings certainly not available to all.
It seems to me that it is almost impossible to explain to some people the intend behind this and the idea of a common - yet not fixed in all parameters - ground building on the software used to made a sonic review or description.
Its the same as if agreeing on a common language to be used to communicate.
My god........
Well then, ....... it seems again,- as always in audiophile community: no common ground possible - no matter how tiny.
It seems too, that many prefer to talk into and out of the blue with no real connection to anyone else - that way we all can enjoy the illusion that what we have set-up at home is great, outstanding, the best, whatever.
Still better to link sound or the idea of sound to components listed in virtual space............... that way the "acid test" (see Halcro what I mean....- now isn't that a great joke in itself !) will never happen and no one has to face it - even if only by himself.
Great.
Yes Halcro, - it seems indeed that most people do prefer to keep all things in the nebula. Might well be that some do fear the moments when it becomes apparent that what they hear on their system is not what other tell about that specific record. Even if only they themself will ever realize.
Apparently, - the longing for light isn't the same in all people.
Can't even agree on a language to be used...... |
Dear Perrew, you were/are right - I agree.
I will continue with my suggestions and if we can establish at least a group of interested A'goners (guess you, Halcro, Siltskin, Axelwahl, Syntax and a few others including myself... and maybe several more not yet posting in this thread but watching) are interested and do see the full possibilities of this common ground.
Great if most of the recording are available tooon either CD or SACD .
Most will be available in the upcoming years as HD-download with much higher data than on CD or SACD.
Thats why I am concentrating on timeless "classics", as they will be around forever - as time has already proofed the past 50 years.
My Classic suggestions to be added on saturday and Rock/Pop Sunday.
Please feel invited to add suggestions of your own for any of the categories.
Thank you,
D. |
Well Tubetan, you completely mistook the point.
Its all about a "common language" - a "common ground".
Its not at all about bugging the other with this or that detail in sonic reproduction which might be there or not.
However - I am not on a mission and would be happy if at least a few A'goners do find useful idea in this.
Lyndon B. Johnson once said: "better have them inside the tent peeing out, then outside the tent peeing in".
I do not concur.
If you can't see any point for you - fine with me. |
As for Rock/Pop - most of my favorites are currently NOT available new.
One strong vote for Johnny Cash American Recording Vol. 1 (I know - its rather Country/Western....) and another for Neil Diamond: Home before Dark.
Both do have - while fairly intimate and quite records - extraordinary virtues and at least the first is already a "classic". |
Dear All, what Raul explained with his elaborating post is exactly what I meant.
Very good Raul !
It is about being able to describe certain sonic details as well as complete impressions on a common ground - a given (or several...) record with known pressing and VTA.
Sorry Eric, - I still don't see why my intentions which I explained over and over again still seem to be so mysterious?
If we have a known pressing of a readily available record and the known VTA, then we have for once a chance to run identical software - i.e. - all differences heard or unheard in various systems running with this or that particular record out of a selection of agreed upon LPs are differences in set-up (as Raul nicely explained with VTA settings altering balance and detail response) and abilities of the systems.
We can exchange our opinions and experiences on a common ground.
Thats it.
What I tried to explain in mere theory Raul did - apparently with better success - by a detailed example.
Raul - thank you!
Cheers,
D. |
Hi Axel,
sibilance distortion is a very common phenomenon in a lot of set-ups AND on a lot of records.
What we need, are records which can be tracked WITHOUT sibilance distortion, but only if aligned perfectly.
Usually - if not recording-inherent - sibilance distortion are the result of miss-alignment of either (or most likely both...) cartridge or tonearm.
And yes - don't have to be Tequila Sunrise... - we do need in specific one or two records which can provide just this particular "test bench".
I am still working on the list of classical picks, but will provide them soon - too much "real world" work right now... |
Are both albums currently available new ? |
Sounds good to me.
The Eagles album would have been one of my suggestions in the Rock/Pop department anyway. |
Hi Bob,
as far as I am concerned, I am fine with every suitable record which is READLY AVAILABLE NEW and to everyone.
Thanks, D. |
No certainly not easy - 10 audiophiles = 11 opinions.
Guess we have to abandon the idea of establishing any common ground regarding a set/list of "evaluation records" for high-end audio purpose.
But then that idea is failing in almost all areas of social/public life today.
How could I dare hoping for any better here....(:^) ....
Alas - it was a try.
Cheers,
D. |
It is - apparently - very difficult to establish any kind of "reference standard" (this is not meant to be taken in as "quality" here!) in a subject which is so highly individual and burden with taste, preference and emotion.
Some may even fear such a benchmark being established for whatever reason.
I thought it would be a good one, following the paths Harry Pearson laid out with his list of preferred test records in "the absolu!e sound" almost 3 decades ago.
To have some kind of common ground to return to and to compare things could bring a much better understanding of each other's sonic picture and set-up while communicating about the very sonics in virtual cyberspace.
What I missed however was a constructive counter-proposal.
Especially from the most opposing "critics".
But then constructiveness seems a rare bird anyway these days in "audiophile communication".
Often it is not the message which provokes opposition, but the mere personality of the messenger...;-) .....
I for one still think we missed just another chance to fortify and clarify a part of our communication regarding our passion. |
Viridian, while I do not share your opinion nor would say that you understood my proposal correctly (neither in intend nor content), I agree - with the experience of the past year here on Audiogon... - that there is hardly any intention to agree no matter how obvious a given thing/concept/consequence may be.
In reverse it rather seems that the all present chance and option to deny out of personal preferences and intentions is an omnipresent force in audiophile online discussions. A force few can resist to use. Somehow haunted by the ghost of Mephistofeles who claimed and named himself the "spirit of negation". |
Dear Peterayer, your suggestion is worth musing about. I will have some spare time over the christmas holidays and will prepare a list of my favorite records used for exploring the sonic abilities of components.
Cheers,
D. |
