everything sounded great until the upgrade

New electronics especially transistor / ICs take at least 20hrs of use before the sound settles near what it will be. Tubes seem more forgiving in my experience.  There also could be an output mismatch between the power amp and speakers. I will never forget in the 1980s when my JBL Lancers sounded awesome on a 25w Pioneer  SX525. We borrowed a friend's SX1200 pioneer to try back at home. It way out classed the 25w / ch in every way with if I remember right at least 100W per channel.  In comparison the 25W pioneer blew away the much more high tech SX1250. We were shocked.  The ESS 12" box with air motion transformers sounded great, so did Klipsch horns with the 1250.  It was definitely a component mismatch between the Lancers which sound great with 90% of what was out there.  Lesson learned. Hear components on your system if possible or with a company that will let you demo at home. 

Ok I read it. Music Fidelity. Great Amps. Just musically Bright so if your speakers are bright then bright on bright. The dealer I visited steered me away from MF because of my speakers being bright. Like titanium  drivers are bright. That's what I have is Aluminum mids and titanium tweeters  My speakers have infinite adust on both high frequency drivers.  I can compensate a bit.  If yours do not have mid and tweeter controls you may be stuck. I am sorry this happened.

Ok free things or close to it. Anything except tubes should be left on including your cd player many pieces sound better after a week or more of warm up. Everything equals out. Some very high end has a standby which keeps much of the piece at it best sounding level. Second clean all the connections with Rubbing alcohol get the high percentage bottle. This includes the plug ends of the equipment cords. Lol don't touch the recepticals. Clean the speaker cables the interconnects all that will help. Many times as a system gets more resolution the placement issue comes up so great for people to talk about that bet what do you do? Well the first thing to do is make sure everything is right the way you have it. Are the speakers at exactly the same hieght and level? Take a decent quality level and make sure that they are level side to side and front to back. She across the two speakers and make sure they are the same height. When you look across the one drop your eye down so you can see across the top and that lines up with the other one that the second speaker is no low so you see over top of it or high so you look at the side of it. Also get your tape measure out. Run the tape measure across the speakers and use it as a straight edge if you run it across and line the measure up with the inside corners of the speakers are the outside corners the same distance from the tape measure  meaning is the toe in exact. Also measure the distance from the side wall and the back wall make sure these are exactly the same. As you move these you will have to make sure that you are rechecking level etc. Guaranteed you will hear a huge difference by making everything exactly the same. First thing is you will not understand how muddy your system is until that is correct. Secondly the tonal balance will change. Thirdly that has to be done before you set your listening chair. Also another free thing to try get the setup first but is the cord on you cd player setup so it can only go into the plug in one direction or can you flip it and put it into the receptical the other way. If you can flip it both spades the same width try that it will sound different one way is right the other wrong. What is your cd player sitting on? You might be listening to that as well. An easy thing is to get three dice out of a board game you have and place them under the cd player two at the front and one at.the back you will hear a difference it is a good thing to start with and then experiment with dense pieces of hard wood. 1.inch cubes is a good thing. Make sure they are place in the same place from the front and the sides not under the feet. Look at your wires do the power cords run parallel to the interconnect s or do the cross them at a ninety? Set them up so they cross at a ninety. So you have the speaker wires laying on the floor? If so a free thing to try is cut out the egg carton bumps and use those as stands to get the wire off the floor if you like that try for something better. There again woof blocks or better yet make be out of two pieces of wood so the wire sits on the point of the wood and the base has some width so it is sturdy. Make enough of them so the speaker wire runs parallel to the floor not so there is a wave in the speaker wire. Same thing for the interconnects you can get them off the floor as well if they get there. You can try the little blocks under the amp as well if you want by getting a second set or making a second set. Under the speaker wire I have my transparent wire sitting on power pole insulators. That works great if you have a bunch sitting around. For some reason many antique stores have them around here. Lol had a box of them for some reason sitting in the farm shop I used when I tripped across them one day. As for wall treatment you will want to sit in your chair and have someone gold a mirror on the side wall and move it along until you can see the tweeter in the center of the mirror. Make a small mark on the wall there do that on both sides you can find the second reflection point if you do the same thing and watch as you are I the chair for when you see the tweeter of the left speaker when on the right wall same thing make a small make there as well.  You can do the same thing behind the speakers if you set a pen on top of the speaker in the center pointing back watch for the pen and you can see where the reflection point is behind the speakers on each one. Now the easy way and cheap way to try something here is use some painters tape some you don't mess up the wall and tap a towel hanging off the side walls at the first reflection points. If you like that find something better just a way to try it for cheap. Have fun doing all this for the next couple of months. Use you ears!! And decide for yourself.  You get placement right and you will wipe the floor with way more expensive systems. And remember the more resolution you buy the better the place needs to be. When it is done right you should be able to feel like you can get up from your chair and shake Elvis Presley hand after he had sung to you.  

Regards

OP,

read your problem and skimmed the responses.

Early in my pursuit of high end audio I had a few mis-steps. Assembling a great system takes patience and effort… especially on a budget. If this is something you plan on pursuing (with effort it can be really rewarding) I recommend buying Robert Harley’s book, The Complete Guide to High End Audio. It lays out the whole landscape. One of the difficulties here is you get advice from all sorts of perspectives from folks with vastly different experience and objectives. The book offers approach’s to assemble a very high end system for little money as well as a plan for future better systems.

My thought about your dilemma. I would assume the new integrated is a good sounding piece of equipment and therefore not the problem. Definitely let it break in. Breaking in reduces the treble / forwadness and solidifies bass. The most likely source of the problem is your source. I saw recommendations for a DAC. Good idea… I would look at Schiit Gungnir (or thinking longer termed a Yggdrasil)… probably in you price range. A good streamer makes a difference as well. But this my be longer term… think Bluesound or better.

If the DAC doesn’t do it… then save up for speakers. But the DAC is likely to give you more detail and more natural sound… so this is likely to make you very happy now.

Consider putting some photos of your current system and space under systems under your user ID. I have mine there. This helps folks help you. I mean your system could be in front of picture windows… if we saw that, the whole direction of the conversations would changed

@retiredfarmer 

Hi, thank you for all this, you should write a book about how to gradually improve a system. Some of these changes seem easy, like lifting cables/dice under cd player. 

I will try those. 

If you saw where they sit now, you'd scream! I don't have speaker stands. (partly because they cost money and I also haven't found anything I like aside from the Bucrhardts.

Otherwise, here is my dilemma: if I make these changes - will I hear the difference? Sometimes I switch from amp A to B, speakers X to Y and my ears tell me: well I don't anymore, These are noises. Lots of them. What do you expect from me. 

Of course what I expect is that special moment, when the noise becomes sound, gets into my ears and fills me with joy. 

But it (and all the suggestions) gets to me and enlightens me and will push me to improving my system, eventually :)

@ghdprentice 

1. Book: I wouldn't understand it. Not only that, it would frustrate me that I don't. It would also frustrate me that I don't have the budget to do more (more that costs $) I like technology but more than that I love the awesome and beautiful sound. I don't t really care about how the signals get to my speakers. Not in any disrespectful way, just I am not a nerd that way.

2. DAC Definitely! I am borrowing my brother's a test it out first. 

3. New speakers. I don't have any desire to buy different speakers. I love the look and the sound. Of course if I won the lottery and saved all the orphans from Ukraine and had anything less, I would want the Martens.

4. I will do the photos. I will embarrass myself using West End cubes for speaker stands but. That's where they are.

@grislybutter

The book will not frustrate you… it talks a lot on how to assemble a great system on a shoestring budget. Knowledge empowers you and makes you more effective regardless of budget.

the sound of the "new" amp is decent with my turntable, and terrible with my CD player.

My guess would be that's because analog is so much better than digital. It may not be your CD player, but your CDs. Or both.

When I upgraded my speakers, I could no longer listen to CDs, because (I thought) the CD player was not as good as the rest of my components. I could not listen to ANY CDs without cringing. My records sounded even better though.

Then I upgraded my CD player, and sure enough, many of my CDs sounded much better. But the MAJORITY of my CDs still sounded awful, many of them even worse, and those I just ended up giving to Goodwill. Many of these were from the 80s and 90s, when digital recording and mastering (DDD, "all digital") was considered the apotheosis of recorded sound.

The (sequential) upgrades of my amp, speakers, and CD player gave me some wonderful sound, but also limited me in what I can listen to. Crappy recordings and/or masterings just do not cut the mustard any more. I have to be more diligent and discerning in what recorded material I choose to invest in (both digital and analog, but especially digital). It's a bit of a trade-off, but one I'm content to make, because of the wonderful sound I get with the right recordings.

@ghdprentice 

yes, I am going to buy it, it can't hurt. Worst case is that I will not get it....

But.... I am in it for the fun, and not to climb mountains up in the clouds with zero visibility :)

@theo714 

but also limited me in what I can listen to

that's a hill I don't know how to climb. I need a compromise (system that makes what I like sound good. Maybe there should be a software that re-samples to music we like to our taste :)

@grislybutter 

😊… you’ll get it. 

grislybutter

just a couple of points of interest,                                                                               

a lot of 70s rock albums were great compositions, but with the exception of a few labels (Eg, 1st pressing Columbia's, some DECA's, Deutsche Grammophon) the actual recordings, and the quality of the vinyl being used by the other labels was crapola. Your A3.2 may be a revealing piece of audio gear, and brutal when exposing sh%$ recordings your 2252B didn't divulge.

As for analog VS digital sources, I have two sets of reference speakers, a pair of 946 Focal Electra's and a pair of Meadowlark Heron hot rod's. To save space, lets just say both the analog & digital sources are snob set-ups with the hat tipping to the analog source. The Meadowlark's sound better on my digital source, and it has a tube pre-amp section. I don't know why, but I'm ascertaining the Meadowlark's were voiced using digital gear. 

In your case (don't take this personally) the A3.2 is pretty well engineered, it may be revealing that your cd player is not of the quality you thought it was.

My last point is ..... some gear just doesn't go with some gear. On top of that, perhaps your ears just don't dig Musical Fidelites sonic signature, and the A3.2 isn't your cup of tea???

I'm just saying.

@thehorn 

What do you think about the newly printed LPs?

Of course! It's not personal, it's about the #$%@#! sound. 

I have avoided this word all my life, but here it comes: "SYNERGY"!

That's what missing downstream from my system.

I have experimented a lot over the weekend and what I am missing with the A3.2 for the warmth, I get back with other aspects - such as details, highs, depth. So it may or may not be my cup of tea if warmth is my preference ,

Hey grislybutter,

Don't avoided the word "SYNERGY", it's really prevalent in audio, & essential for putting together a system/package. For you, the days of having a really good system based on having a good pair of speakers are gone. Finito.

Getting back to synergy, a friend had this KILLER system on paper, but his big buck M/C Benz Micro cartridge was picking up FM signals & nobody had a reason why. (Back to the drawing board).

The main thing Gris is not to get frustrated. You've gone from a 70's receiver, to a nice dual mono Integrated Amp, with separate power supplies & output transformers. You are in a state of metamorphosis & your ears don't know what to do with it.

This is actually a good thing, except it's going to cost you money, LOL. You now have a small Porsche engine (Musical Fidelity A3.2), which you're operating on Wal-Mart tires (your speakers).

Pretty hard to recommend a speaker when I know nothing about your room .... floor standers, book shelves, etc.

But if you're set on warm sounding speakers, you may want to consider vintage speakers, AR's, or Advents. Might want to look into ESS. Problem is they're collectability. They've gone from "get those old things out of here", to being double, triple, of their original price. And who knows what they've been through. IMHO, when you can get a pair of Paradigm monitor 9-v1's for under $500 CDN dollars, it's really hard to justify $1200 dollars for a pair of AR3's that sold for $95 bucks in 1975.

The worm has turned Gris & there's no turning back.

As for recordings, Acoustic Sounds, Inc is a good place to start.

https://store.acousticsounds.com/cat/5/Vinyl_Record

@thehorn 

I am forever dragged into the dark audiophile underworld and I shall never be satisfied nor understood by non-believers again 😀

Seriously. Isn't it a reasonable goal to make my existing speakers sound good? Just for a day before I move on..... . to your suggestions.

the main aspects for speakers:

bookshelf

room - open in one direction but 12'x20' - 3mx4m

I don't need big bass

has to sound good with both Gypsy Queen by Van Morrison and the first Gimme Some Lovin'

Look at Dynaudio bookshelf speakers.I own a pair of Dynaudio special forty’s speakers and I own a musical fidelity m6si amplifier.The speakers are a warm sounding speakers that work well with musical fidelity amplifier.

grislybutter,

"Seriously. Isn’t it a reasonable goal to make my existing speakers sound good"?

You are absolutely correct. Speakers are mega, yet they are still only one ingredient in the stew.

My philosophy is different to a lot of philes in two ways. One: - before you spend a penny on gear there are two variables that need your attention. A: The quality of the actual recording that’s being listened to. B: The room you’re playing it in. Two: - The other difference in my equipment philosophy is, it’s my source that I build my system around, not my speakers. Speakers come & go. Without a good source to play a fine recording ya got NADA.

"Isn’t it a reasonable goal to make my existing speakers sound good"? Ya think! Optimize your existing set-up. If you’re table (I wish I knew what it was) bests your Cd player, focus on your turntable 1st. Get some isolation pads (IsoAcoustics) under your turntable, amp & speakers. If your table is a cut above consider rewiring your tonearm with a single run interconnect. (this is the only place I’d consider silver over copper). http://www.smetonearms.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=2

Next, get good interconnects. If you’re handy, save some money & make your own http://www.cardas.com/chassis_wire.php, (I like the GRNO 90 RCA connecters), or buy used. Same goes with speaker wire, & I’m glad to say you can do well here without going nuts. Kimber’s Base PR8 will do ya fine. https://www.kimber.com/products/8PR

As for bookshelf speaker .... take your time, enjoy what you have. When the time comes ProAc D2. https://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/products/response-d2-r-d/

@bigmac1963 current ones are Evoke 20s. I love Dynaudio. I listed to the Special forty’s and I missed the warmth of the Evokes. At the dealer, then and there. So, yes, special forty’s might be the be all end all!

Very simple, stick to what works. If possible go back to the original amp. The new amp purchase is a mistake. You will be throwing good money after bad replacing everything else including speakers to match the new amp purchase. Why can't you sell the new amp? Do you still have the old amp?  If not, this is typically the price paid for "not" leaving well enough alone. We all have been there.

@thehorn 

that's my biggest lesson from it: it's starts with the amp.

I always chased the speakers before.

If I had the money and time, I'd buy a different system for my 10 favorite songs each because they all sound different now

grislybutter,

"that’s my biggest lesson from it: it’s starts with the amp". I never said that Gris, it starts with the source (turntable/cartridge/tonearm, or Cd, etc), and the quality of the actual recording process on the format. It’s quality in, quality out, or, garbage in ...... etc.

Now your narrative implies that you have a good turntable, (get it isolated!!!), and you have the M/F A3.2, so optimize your speaker set-up as I & others in this form have suggested, then enjoy the life long learning curve.

When I was 20 I bought an Oracle Delphi turntable, with a Syrinx LE1 arm & a Grace F9 cartridge. In the subsequent 43 years tonearms, cartridges, pre-amps, amps, speakers, "houses", have all come and gone. But the one reference piece that’s remained, the foundation I could measure all other components against, was my source. That in my experience is where Phile’s with limited resouces should start. The source.

So don’t ignore your room, book cases, curtains, crown molding, pictures & end tables maynot be as effective as dedicated defusers/traps, but hey. This is your home, not a lab. Lets not lose perspective, are you spinning a few tunes, or are you finding a cure for cancer?

 

 

In short: I loved the sound of my modest system, until I upgraded my amp. Now it sounds pretty horrible. It went from a warm sweet embracing easy-to-listen sound to knives and forks trying to escape from a bathtub.

So...

1. I can just unplug this new amp (used) and sell it

If you changed the amp and it is bad now, then I cannot see why people are talking about sources, DACs, TT, the room, cables, etc.

IMO… Sell that amp and move on… or back to what you had.
(The only thing you changed was the amp right?)

With respect to warm up times, I plugged in a used phono amp which traveled 1/2 way around the world. After the 90 seconds, when the LED when from yellow to green, it sounded pretty good.
I turned it off, waited a couple of minutes, and then pulled the cover off to flip switches for the cart I am running. Another 90 second of power and it was even better.

If it sounds bad at the first 2 minutes, then 2 hours or 2 days may not help it a lot.