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Fidelity Research FR-64 vs. FR-54

In a prior discussion, I had asked about tonearm suggestions for a Luxman PD-441 table that currently has a Denon DA-307 tonearm and Grado The Reference high output cartridge.  Many suggestions were provided.  A Fidelity Research FR-64 was suggested as a simple replacement.  I'm wondering if the FR-54 would also be good, being that it is mentioned in the Luxman manual in the same category as the Denon arm on there now?
bdunne
lewm
13,137 posts
 
In my post of 01/31/17, the one preceding Dover's last post, I should have written "because of", not "even with".  It is because I am using a lighter than OEM headshell and a very lightweight MI cartridge that the CW has had to be moved so close to the pivot.  Don't want to confuse anyone any more than necessary (heh-heh).

dcbingaman, Wouldn't it be the case that the FR64S and 66S are better suited for lowest compliance MC cartridges, because they are, respectively, higher in effective mass than the fx versions?  So, you might say that the fx tonearms are best suited for low/medium compliance cartridges.  I own an Urushi, too, and one of the reasons I bought the FR64S was to suit the Urushi, because I have read that the two are well matched.  So far, I haven't gotten around to trying that combo, however.

I accidentally came upon the posts by J Carr, in which, like Raul, he mildly criticized the FR64S/66S tonearms for their resonant properties.  Raul was not wrong in mentioning that he had J Carr on his side in the debate.  J Carr seems to prefer the later Ikeda tonearms and some others, to the FRs, and he mentioned that Ikeda himself prefers his later tonearm designs to those he designed for FR.  I think, in audio as in other pursuits, context is everything. I still have to go by what I hear in my system with the particular cartridge that I am using.
nandric's avatar
nandric
4,086 posts
 

Dear Lew, whatever the context we have our own preferences. J.

Carr mentioned in the same post that Ikeda 345 is his best arm.

Even Ikeda and his mechanics agreed that the 345 is their best.

I own the 345 but prefer my FR-64 S.


lewm
13,137 posts
 
Nandric, Thanks for filling in the model number of the preferred Ikeda tonearm.  I've never seen an Ikeda arm of any type, but in photos I don't see any evidence that they incorporate damping any more so than the FR tonearms.  But I reckon the arm tubes may be internally damped, whereas the FRs are not.  Just a guess.
dcbingaman
93 posts
 
Lew, I'm sure Ikeda likes his newer designs better.  J. Carr apparently does too, and he is a pretty smart dude. I have never heard Ikeda say anything negative about his older arms, however, and the newer Ikeda arms are a refinement of the FR arms.  As far as resonant properties, I have a hard time believing that the cartridge can cause resonance in the armtube above 100 hz - there is just too much compliance in the cartridge attachment to the headshell and the headshell attachment to the arm through the collet.

I am keenly aware of low compliance cartridges pushing the arm around at low frequencies, however.  This is the biggest source of thin, tinny sound.  IMHO, uni-pivots just don't work well with low compliance cartridges for this reason - the cartridge can and does rock the arm back and forth in azimuth at low frequencies. What the FR arms have going for them is high mass and beefy, outstanding bearings that don't give.  They have essentially no freedom of movement in azimuth.  The bearings in the Ikeda arms are even beefier.  That is why they work well with Koetsu's, Miyajima's and Ortofon SPU's.  These arms don't allow the cartridge to push back and cancel half the bass in the groove.

BTW, I have an MDC-800 (The Arm) on a SOTA Sapphire and an FR-64fx on a tricked out VPI HW-19 Mk. IV.  I tried my Miyajima Shilabe (low compliance) on my SOTA setup first and wasn't impressed with the bass, (which this cartridge is known for).  I then switched it to an FR headshell and tried it on the VPI HW-19 Mk. IV.  It had better bass than my Ortofon Synergy SPU, (aka the Rach 3 ball-buster !), on the same arm and table.  

The MDC-800 has outstanding bearings, so I reasoned that I needed more arm mass and inertia about the cartridge.  I added 3 grams of weight to the cartridge end of the MDC-800, remounted the Shilabe to the arm and tried again.  This time it matched the VPI set-up for bass.  The weight increased the moving mass of the MDC-800 from ~13 grams to over 16 grams, and it made a huge difference in sound.  You can't stress cartridge / tonearm matching too highly.  Many high end cartridges and tonearms are just plain incompatible and can cause endless frustration and head-scratching for many, many vinylistas !!

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rauliruegas
13,101 posts
 
Dear @lewm / @dcbingaman : J.C does not like FR/SAEC or Ikeda tonearms mainly because its overall resonances that does not helps to the MUSIC real enjoyment.

I owned and own the FR and the Ikeda 407  that's the long one similar to the 66. This one is a " little/tiny " less bad than the FRs but that's all.

As a cartridge designer ( mainly. ) JC must have and try almost any vintage or today tonearms and TTs and even he was co-designer of a SS dual mono Phono StageHe needs to test  his top cartridge models with different analog rig alternatives, this is part of his cartridge voicing.

Here is what JC posted literally in this forum about:


""" 

Otherwise the "fx" or "fc" variants are far more friendly to use. By the time Ikeda did the IT-345 and IT-407, he had gained a much better awareness of resonance control as compared to his FR days.
 


And as Raoul suggested, I use the Warren Gehl armwrap, which is far more effective than heatshrink. It dampens the resonances of the armtube by compressing it radially, and works on a similar principle to how you play harmonics on a bass or guitar.

The armwrap's radial compression of the armtube makes the 64S and 66S operate a bit more like Ikeda's later arm designs like the IT-245 and IT-407, although these added interference damping by force-fitting multiple concentric tubes of various materials together.

FWIW, from the resonance-control point of view, Ikeda's personal favorite among his own designs is the IT-345, which I believe has a three-way concentric armtube structure. The person who's been building these arms for the past 20-odd years is of the same opinion.   """"



The ones that likes Ikeda tonearms are the Ikeda builders/designers! ! ! 


It can't be the other way around, they put on sale those tonearms but  it's not JC whom likes those disastrous tonearms.


No, I don't have any more the 407. People like me have the rigth to learn.



Btw, @dcbingaman , your Sota combination was a Sota classic on those times along the ET tonearm too. The arm is a good arm that Fletcher imroved over the original Swiss one design.


The cartridge/tonearm intrinsicall relationship for a " perfect sound is complex for say the least where are in play to many parameters at the same time that when you improve/up-grade some of one this could affect in positive ways to other parameters involved but could affect in negative ways with other relatioship parameters. 

At the end what I'm looking here is to achieve the lower distortions ( any kind. ) I can and a non-damped tonearm is out of that target and I know it because I still have one FR and I have it only to test ( if need it. ) how the cartridge signal must not be reproduced and that's all.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC,

R.










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