From whence does Sound Stage come?

@oldrooney

Have you had other people over to listen to see if they hear the same things you do from the various component changes? This is an area I’m interested in. It’s not clear why a change in a DAC or amplifier would have a perceptual effect on the soundstage, and it’s not clear that it works the same for everybody in the same situation. Our ability to detect the direction and distance of sound seems to be somewhat of a contextual expectation effect. So a subtle tonal shift can be interpreted as just bad tone, or as good tone coming from a different direction. I’ve had this effect flip on me right in the middle of listening to something. A loud noise from nearby can re-set my aural perspective and suddenly the stereo sound field collapses AND the tone sounds funny.

One thing that’s undeniable about 2 channel or even multichannel audio is that it is filled with crosstalk anomalies that you don’t experience from real instruments playing in different positions in space. In the real case, there’s always a consistent way the sound from each instrument hits your head from that direction. So as you turn your head or move around the room, they stay where they are, and everything is easy for your ears and brain to interpret and make sense of. When you start dealing with phantom images, sounds that are supposed to seem like they’re coming from a different direction than they actually are, there are inevitably inconsistencies that the brain/ear system has to interpret. There’s no guarantee that we’re all going to interpret them in a way that sounds good to us. But there may be ways to make it a lot more stable and reliable so that we’ll get the experience we expect and want practically all the time.

I’ve gone to up-mixing 2 channel audio to 3 speakers myself, using a simple crosstalk reduction scheme with all 3 speakers fairly close together. This started off as an experiment but it’s now been going for close to a year now and I’m remaining extremely satisfied with how easily it lets the speakers disappear to create a nice wide soundstage with depth, stability, and perceptually nice tone for me.

I’m finding that being perceptually properly oriented to your system is at least as important as the quality of the components and the listening room acoustics. Quality components and good room acoustics I think do help with maintaining proper orientation in terms of the sound stage. I think some listening arrangements are easier to aurally adapt to and stay oriented to, so the requirement for equipment quality goes down in terms of maintaining a sound stage, although you still can hear improvements in other areas such as dynamics, tonal purity, etc. from using better components.

@mahler123 Your response about feeling like a kid in the garage made me chuckle. I have considered DSP processing of the signal, and it is available to me on the upstairs system (the one with the McIntosh XRT speakers). My experiences with multichannel sound has been mixed with two exceptions: (1) Center Speaker, and (2) subwoofer(s). Until the recent acquisition and installation of the XRT speaker system, I hadn’t listened to music except for a local classical music station favored by a frequent visitor and occasional CD playing in the background. The use of the upstairs is likely to remain ‘entertainment’ as opposed to serious listening. 
 

However, you do bring up an important point about a multichannel system’s ability to recreate a listening space via digital processing of the signal. Whereas a traditional stereo recording care must be taken to include spatial information (the venue); then Yahaha comes out and says, ‘flip this switch and your recording will sound like it was recorded in Carnegie Hall through the magic of DSP.’  But I gotta say, after spending 20 years waiting for television shows to fully implement 5.1 or 7.1 I’m still waiting. Maybe I’m just not watching the right shows.
 

But I digress. I currently use my AV Receiver with Front Left & Right and Center plus a Subwoofer. Speakers were chosen for treble clarity, and work well to bring me clear dialog to accompany the sub-titles. I have considered putting side and rear surrounds in the ceiling, but I have been advised against it. And based on my previous experience, I’m no sure it would be worth the trouble: re-arrange the room, move the primary listening position, and then what?

Anyway, thanks for responding, I’m not saying, ‘never,’ but I am saying, ‘not now.’

@asctim I think you and I are on the same page. I have stated above that there must be a strong psycho-acoustic element to all this to even have a stereo image to begin with. The LEDR test signals rodman9995 shared takes it a step further to evaluate how the shape of our ears👂 , or pinnae, contribute to our perception of sound.
Two of my sons have visited recently (successive weekends) and listened to both systems, and then given me their evaluations. The discussion, in both cases, centered around the quantity and quality of the bass. I’ve attempted to explain the differences based on differences on the technology: the B&W 801s downstairs are a front-ported bass-reflex design; the McIntosh XRT20s upstairs have sealed cabinets. One son described the downstairs system as being much more ‘plugged in’ whereas the upstairs system was much more laidback. He said he preferred the 801s. The other son preferred the XRTs and contrasted the ‘studio sound’ from the 801s to the ‘made for the home’ sound of the XRTs upstairs.

I’ve been mainly focused on acquiring a decent amount of quality gear for the first two years, and while I continue to evaluate alternative options for gear, I’m turning my attention to room acoustics now. (Note: My takeaway from two years of virtually nonstop gear purchases is that solid, better quality speakers cover a multitude of equipment “sins.”) I’m also exploring access to better sources for my serious listening sessions, I plan to learn how to use the inexpensive microphone and free software to get a handle on how my room is ‘performing.’ In the process, I’m hoping, that while my hearing will not improve, I can become a better listener. :-)

From the latest issue of PS Audio’s Copper Magazine, Paul McGowan on soundstaging:

https://www.psaudio.com/blogs/copper/octave-records-expands-em-the-art-of-hi-fi-series-em-with-em-volume-02-soundstage-em

Multi channel is a commitment, in labor and gear.  I haven’t gone the Atmos route, as my room dimensions simply don’t make sense for height speakers.  Yet when done correctly some of my 5.1 recordings add so much presence.  For example the Pentatone Brahms Symphony Cycle with Janowski and Pittsburgh the rears add proper ambiance and room reflections and this helps with the perception of front to back spacing.  Not all Multichannel recordings are done this sensitively, and merely hitting a button an AVR that converts two channel to multichannel isn’t the same thing