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Front- vs. Down-Firing Subs and Amp Issue

A couple of assertions in the audio world have me perplexed as to how to select a subwoofer for my two-channel system.

Richard Hardesty makes the blanket statement in his Audio Perfectionist Journal that down-firing subs should never be used for high-end two-channel audio. Only front-firing subs are suitable for this application. I see, however, that some of the most-recommended subs on a'gon (Hsu TN series, ACI and REL come to mind) are down-firing (or up-firing in the case of Hsu.) Maybe the answer is that audiophile subs can't be purchased at the price point most mortals can afford, and the lower-priced subs just happen to be down-firing? Oh, Hardesty also says ported subs are not suitable for high-end audio; must go with a sealed box. Interesting.

The second assertion comes from Mike Barnes at nOrh, who says on his website that the plate amps used in 90% of subs today is crap and puts out only a fraction of power that is claimed. The sound that was rattling his windows and creating "earth-shaking bass" was not bass at all- it was distortion. He also states that he began tests in subwoofer development using the popular Peerless 12" woofer, which was literally shredded by a (non-plate) 150-watt amp.

So now I'm confused. Is it possible to buy a high-quality sub for relatively little money? I can't bring myself to spend $3-5k on a pair of speakers only to turn around and spend nearly that much on a sub. Oh, and then I hear that if I want the best possible configuration I need two subs at twice the price, making my subs more expensive than my speakers. Is this just a fact of life that I'll have to come to grips with if I don't want to buy speakers that go down to 20hz?

Thoughts?
aggielaw
sogood51
2,157 posts
 
Raul said,

"
The task that have a subwoofer is the most difficult area in the home audio frecuency spectrum ( from 80Hz down flat to 16-20Hz ) sound reproduction. So ,you can't expect that that " very hard task " is for a " little money ", at least not for a good quality sound reproduction.
If the task of low/deep bass reproduction were an " easy " one then the subs does not exist because any builder/designer of speakers could incorporate in their full rage speakers and for a low price. If you take a look to the price of full-range speakers ( 20Hz to 25kHz ) you can " see " that everyone had a very very high price. Much of that high price has to be with the quality reproduction of the last two octaves in the music".

Humm, and you think cheap plate amps are best up to this task?.

"I'm in favor, too, of self-powered subwoofers instead the passive ones. The self-powered subwoofers have many advantages against the passive ones."

Not really, unless were talking price and convenience...no advantage in sound quality at all IMO as all the convenience features can be had out-board, and as high, or higher quality to boot.

Some of the new wave of subs hitting the market may change this as that technology filters down into lower price ranges but for now these subs are big $$$ and out of the price range of most IMO.

BTW, I use three subs, one off of my prepro's LFE output and the other two with outboard x-over...works for me.

Dave
tgrisham
1,291 posts
 
All of the above comments have merit. It will depend on your room. My down-firing REL reinforces my two channel monitors but is crossed-over at 40 Hz and is sealed. It has a "presence" in the room and is necessary for realistic reproduction of music, but not for movies. I have a Hsu VTF-3R Mark 2 and it doubles for movies (crossed at 60 Hz even with floorstanders) and music. It is hardly on for music but fills in a little at the bottom. It is a compromise and better with movies. I recommend REL for adding bottom to 2 channel. My opinion: a subwoofer should be front firing if it is crossed over high enough to localize (60 Hz, 80 Hz, 100 Hz?) and then should be placed in front between the mains. An advantage of the mail-order companies is trying them in your own home and seeing how it fits. Also, 2 subs are twice the challenge of 1 in terms of set-up. Good luck!
sstark
63 posts
 
I use a Polk vented dual side firing 12 inch for movies- great for explosions but not for music. Its slow, soft mushy but it can move the couch. For music, an active xover feeding separate bass boxes- dual front firing sealed 10 inch Hale woofers driven by a modded BK 442 amp. I set the cross over way up their at 120hz-trial and error route. The bass amp runs very very hot, it gets a workout. Best test is Bach Cello Sonatas - it reproduces that wonderful cello bass sonority that you can hear and even feel where the vented sub seemed to just buzz. Best is front firing with a nice transisiton to higher frequencies.
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rauliruegas
13,050 posts
 
Dear Dave: +++++ " Not really, unless were talking price and convenience...no advantage in sound quality at all " +++++

I think that this statement is a misunderstood about the subwoofer subject. This is what I already post on other thread and, by coincidence, what the Audio Perfectionist Journal review about:

+++++ " - Now the low bass frecuencies are handle for a dedicated driver that was build with specifics characteristics for to work in that frecuency range and this low bass driver is matched with an amplifier ( self powered subwoofers ) that was build with specifications that mates excatly what the low bass drivers needs about: frecuency response, output impedance, damping, power, etc..... You can't ask for more!!! " +++++

The concept of passive subwoofers, the use of only one ( mono ) sub and low bass enhanced through a subwoofer is a very " old " concept that already change, for the better, for the new concept: integration of subwoofers in a true stereo way, with all the advantages that these means ( read carefully those links ).

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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rauliruegas
13,050 posts
 
Dear Tgrisham: +++++ " a subwoofer should be front firing if it is crossed over high enough to localize (60 Hz, 80 Hz, 100 Hz?) and then should be placed in front between the mains.. " +++++

You can't localize where are the subs at a crossover point from 80Hz and down. You can try and you will see that it is almost impossible.
The position of the subs has nothing to do if is front/rear/down firing, the room position is a very complex subject where there are no absolute rules.

You can read the links that I already post in this thread ( the first post ) about the whole subwoofer concept. Maybe these links can help you to obtain a better quality music reproduction from your system.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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