First, ensure the pilot assembly and ignition module are grounded. The pilot can be grounded by using a double insulated or bare, solid copper wire from a mounting screw directly to the "GND" terminal on the module, if so equipped, otherwise to chasis. You can also ground the neutral side of the 24V transformer.
If that doesn't work, consider an isolation transformer. |
The most fundamental difference between now and when the problem was not present, aside from the different amps, is that previously there were balanced connections, and now there are single-ended connections.
As Jim's "myths" link makes clear, the shields of single-ended interconnects, while serving as the return path for signals that are transmitted between the connected components, also conduct extraneous currents caused by ac ground differentials between the components (since the shields tie together the chassis of the components, which in turn are connected to both signal ground and ac safety ground). The common path causes coupling of ac-related noise into signal, since the receiving component has no way of distinguishing between the two. Balanced interfaces are a completely different story, and are essentially immune to this kind of effect.
So my first suggestion, if you have not already tried it, would be to connect EVERY component in the system to the SAME dedicated line, to minimize ground offsets between the components.
Beyond that, it IS very conceivable to me that a better quality interconnect would help, because it would presumably (although not necessarily) have lower shield resistance, which would tend to "short out" voltage offsets between the chassis of the connected components. As well as providing better immunity to airborne rfi.
Regards,
-- Al |
If the outlet is hospital grade or isolated ground it must be wired as I said before. The differance between an isolated ground and non isolated is that the outlet ground and the ground screw are connected to each other only and not to the metal section that hold the outlet to the box, non isolated outlets the three are connected to each other. If you used an old work plastic box there is no bonding of the grounds and is not LEGAL and you could get hurt. I would change the outlet to a good regular outlet or get a metal box and a pair of ears for old work and replace it, I would do the box myself if it were me, you must srcew the ground to the box for good contact.
Doing this will defeat the reason to use an isolated outlet. How hard would it be to replace the wire? If you paid for this to be done it is wrong & the electrician should redo it. If not tell him you will ask an inspector to check it. You could also try a sub panel and run a seperate ground. This would be best.
As far as your furnace gos. I would make sure your equipment is on the opposite side and fed first. Equipment top breaker 1 & 5 right side 2 & 6 left side furnace as low as you can go in panel. I do not know how many breakers fit in your box or the type so I cannot tell you any more. I always feed furances and a/c unit at the bottom of the box for power and connect the ground as close to the ground wire as I can or I add sub panel.
This could also be because your furnace is not wired correcly by the way.
Talk to a local electrician they will know more of your local code. What state are you in?
I recommend you do not try the sub panel yourself or any of this for that matter it can get tricky. |
A balanced transformer didn't eliminate my problem, I do agree it eliminates a lot of garbage riding on lines.
A transformer and balanced cables may or may not do the trick for Tmmesselt. |
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I can also understand why lifting the grounds on amps has no effect. I surmise the garbage is riding on grounds through rest of system. Was always there, other amps may have had better filtering or ground potential has changed. Again, lifting the grounds temporarily at AC outlets will tell if grounds are the issue. Everything is just speculation until this probability is eliminated. |
Jea, I can only go by my experience, exactly the same problem, dedicated ground fixed it and a nice sonic boost to match.
I'm also not saying it can't be RFI, just a long, long shot. He didn't have the problem with the other amps and same cable, points to amps as problem. It could be the other amps did a better job of filtering out EMI and RFI.
I just think dedicated grounds are the resolution to all these sorts of problems, I'm not alone, many are using dedicated grounds. |
Oh, and I have also put the cheater plug on both amps and the clicking is still there.
03-28-09: Tmesselt
Why does that not surprise me...... |
03-28-09: Sns
Cables are not going to fix this issue, picking up RFI from the furnace is the longest of long shots, and they didn't do it with the other amp, should tell you something. Ground potential is somehow different with new amps, I don't know why. Sns, do you have a battery operated radio? If so set the band to AM and tune in a weak radio station. Go to where your furnace is located and have the wife turn up the stat to call for heat. When the ignitor starts bet you will hear it over the radio. Guess what? The radio shares no power or ground with the furnace whats so ever..... Airborne RFI. I am not saying Tmesselt's problem is caused by airborne RFI, but it is a possibility. We know one thing for sure at this point. With the old amps and old ics there was not any problem. A little hard to blame it on the dedicated branch circuit wiring at this time. For a test I would like Tmesselt to try the ground cheaters on the amps. If that stops the clicking sound of the ignitor then the problem can be solved at the furnace. |
timrhu,
So you think that they problem may be my amps, and not something with my electrical wiring in my house?
Or maybe that the issue was there the entire time and the Bel Canto's just filtered it out and I could not hear it?
Tim |
I'm not familiar with your amps but that is where I suspect the problem lies. Not saying they aren't functioning properly but they may have less RFI noise filtering capability than the Bel Cantos. |
hevac1,
I am using hospital grade outlets with romex 12/2 so I obviously did not wire them how you are suggesting to. Do you have to wire all audiophile grade outlets like this, or do you wire them like a standard outlet?
Oh, and I have also put the cheater plug on both amps and the clicking is still there.
I also used a plastic blue box for old work, so I am not able to ground to that.
So if you do not think that cables will make a difference, I will go get some standard outlets to start with and see how that goes. |
Tmesselt,
The furnace is still covered under manufacture warranty for parts and labor. Give the furnace company that installed the furnace a call and tell them you are experiencing a problem with the furnace. LOL, no need to mention you didn't have the problem with the other amps. They may have an AC line filter they can install on the furnace. At any rate they will check to make sure the ignition controller and ignitor is making a good ground connection to the metal frame work of the furnace. |
Hospital outlets have an isolated ground. The wire going to it should be 3 conductor plus ground. Black is hot, White is common, Red with green tape added is ground to the outlet and the copper wire is for bonding to the metal outlet box. If you used 2 conductor with ground and did not use a metal box then you may not be grounded correctly.
Remove the outlets and put a regular outlet in. This may help. It is a waste if you use isolated grounded outlet and do not use the correct wire. Tube amps will have issues with bad grounds more than solid state. You could also try cheater plugs and see if the solves your issue.
Also on your breaker box, as you count down on the each side of the breaker box every other breaker is the opposite side of power. Breakers on the left side, 1 is 1 side of 208 and breaker 3 is the other side and the same for the right side 2 is one side and 4 is the other this is so if you put in a 2 pole breaker you get 208. Your breakers for your amps should be on the oposite line from your furnace. There is a thread in Tech that shows the inside of a breaker box and how it is wired for power to be on the same side. |
Cables are not going to fix this issue, picking up RFI from the furnace is the longest of long shots, and they didn't do it with the other amp, should tell you something. Ground potential is somehow different with new amps, I don't know why.
I can just about guarantee you, lift the ground on dedicated circuits at AC receptacle, noise will stop and your system will take a nice leap forward. Also be aware this is dangerous, only a temporary means to determine the ground is indeed the problem. |
Jea48,
Well I have no idea about my particular nxg cables, I cant find any info about these exact ones and they are prob about 5-6 years old so no telling. I see there are some new ones that are shielded that are prob the newer models of the ones I am using.
As far as the furnace goes, it is 5-6 months old, I just had it put it.
I also tried to lift the ground on both of the amps, this did not work either. I guess the thing I will do next is just wait for my new interconnects which will be here soon and I will see if that fixes the problem, (hopefully soon). |
Except for I used Analysis Plus balanced interconnects before. Now that I am using the Genesis m60s which are unbalanced I am using a cheap pair NXG rca cables. Are the NXG rca cables shielded? Try another pair of ics that are shielded. Like I said before all has been fine with my previous amps since I installed the 2 dedicated lines 4-5 months ago, and this just started yesterday when I hooked up these amps. Could be these amps are more sensitive to RF interference than the other amps. The ignition spark on the furnace is high voltage and generates airborne RFI. It is also possible the HV spark ignitor is sending RFI back through the equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit that feeds the furnace. When was the last time you had your furnace checked out? You might call someone out and have it serviced and have them check the ignition controller and the ignitor for a possible loose or corroded ground connection. |
Strange that you didn't hear this with the prior amps.
I had exactly the same furnace ignition 'click' with my dedicated circuits. It is the grounds which are contaminated, they feed household garbage through the ground.
The only cure that I know of is dedicated ground for the dedicated circuit. Be aware this can be dangerous in lightning storms as ground potential differs between whole house ground and dedicated ground. Maybe lifting ground on amps will solve as well. |
Generally, dedicated lines are installed with a separate breaker-box specifically for those lines(separate from the main panel). A separate ground is also required. Otherwise, the electrical sound of every appliance in the house can, and possibly will, travel through your audio system. |
Oregon,
yeah, I actually did install them myself. by confirming the lines are dedicated, yes I believe they are.
I installed 2 20amp breakers, connected to each breaker is a run of 12/2 romex, then connected to a pair of hospital grade duplex's.
Like I said before all has been fine with my previous amps since I installed the 2 dedicated lines 4-5 months ago, and this just started yesterday when I hooked up these amps.
Tim |
Well so far from what I have seen is that my dedicated circuits are both on the same side of the panel as the furnace is. I do have a gas furnace so the breaker for the furnace is 110. As a last resort I can look into putting the furnace breaker on the other side of the panel. (Is this what you were referring to Nosnhoj???)
Also one other thing to note is that my ground bars in my breaker are full and there is more than one ground in each one, including both dedicated circuits for my audio setup.
I have also switched my amps to the other dedicated circuit that is installed, and now the clicking noise the furnace starting is now coming through the opposite speaker.
Commcat,
So what if I use a 2 prong adapter and I find out that the problem is gone then how do I really fix this problem as I do not want to permanently use one of these adapters. |
Tim,
I am wiring a cabin right now and have been reviewing my electrical book with this issue in mind. The house curcuits are all tied together at the main breaker panel so spikes, surges and noise generated within the house can move between them. This agrees with experience in my current cabin. I wonder if making sure the dedicated line is on the opposite panel bus (110V leg) from your furnace or noisiest 110V appliances in general would provide the needed isolation, or if the neutral bus would still allow contamination of the other circuits. 220V appliances are connected to both busses so there may be no escape there. Also, the book says that surge protection mounted at the main panel will deal with spikes generated within the house. Is there a conditioner/filter that could be connected at the panel to deal with noise in general? |
Could a common-ground explain the problem? Have you tried to lift the ground on the M60 Amplifiers?? Use a 2-prong adapter on each amplifier. It may improve the audio reproduction as well. |
Tim,
I would confirm that the lines are indeed "dedicated". Did you do this, or did an electrician do it? Many times, electricians that I've spoken to, after hearing my requirements and specific goals, proceed to tell me how easy it will be to tap into this line or that line, not having listened, or understood what I meant by "dedicated line".
Electricians, like other professionals, seem to poo-poo the goals and the reasons for which they've been hired by a client. (I work in the medical field and see this often).
So check to see if your requirements have been met.
Good luck. Keep us posted. |
Yeah, the other strange thing (to me at least) is that both amps are on the same 20 amp dedicated circuit. Making me think it should effect both amps and speakers???? Although, I agree with your statement that a dedicated circuit should be seperate from the furnace line. Also it is strange that I have never experienced this before with my previous amps and this is the only thing that I have changed.
Except for I used Analysis Plus balanced interconnects before. Now that I am using the Genesis m60s which are unbalanced I am using a cheap pair NXG rca cables. Until my Shunyata Antares ICs get here hopefully sometime in the middle of this coming week.
Could these cheap interconnect be picking up this interference? I am thinking probably not, but just trying to go over what has changed in my system now that I am getting this strange issue.
Tim |
I would not think that this should happen if your dedicated lines are on a separate circuit from your furnace. It appears to result from a power draw down or interruption on the line when the furnace requires power. I am going to let more experienced electricians than myself answer further but it would seem to me that the lines should be isolated from each other. |
