How do you judge your system's neutrality?



Here’s an answer I’ve been kicking around: Your system is becoming more neutral whenever you change a system element (component, cable, room treatment, etc.) and you get the following results:

(1) Individual pieces of music sound more unique.
(2) Your music collection sounds more diverse.

This theory occurred to me one day when I changed amps and noticed that the timbres of instruments were suddenly more distinct from one another. With the old amp, all instruments seemed to have a common harmonic element (the signature of the amp?!). With the new amp, individual instrument timbres sounded more unique and the range of instrument timbres sounded more diverse. I went on to notice that whole songs (and even whole albums) sounded more unique, and that my music collection, taken as a whole, sounded more diverse.

That led me to the following idea: If, after changing a system element, (1) individual pieces of music sound more unique, and (2) your music collection sounds more diverse, then your system is contributing less of its own signature to the music. And less signature means more neutral.

Thoughts?

P.S. This is only a way of judging the relative neutrality of a system. Judging the absolute neutrality of a system is a philosophical question for another day.

P.P.S. I don’t believe a system’s signature can be reduced to zero. But it doesn’t follow from that that differences in neutrality do not exist.

P.P.P.S. I’m not suggesting that neutrality is the most important goal in building an audio system, but in my experience, the changes that have resulted in greater neutrality (using the standard above) have also been the changes that resulted in more musical enjoyment.
bryoncunningham
Dgarretson, YOU are as sharp as a tack! Love your response and sense of humor as well. I have been hectoring a bit (too much) haven't I.

But troll, I don't think so.

I thought the term Troll was reserved for folks who posted threads on controversial subjects in which people are known to have strong diverse opinions and resolution is not possible. A thread that predictably sucks in readers to responding (in good faith) to no good end except for the opportunities it provided the OP.

The appearance of this thread certainly could be evidence of the activity of a troll. One thing is clear, and the OP admitted this somewhere in his posts, he loves to argue and considers himself quite skilled. One could think that his husbanding of the direction of the subject was a little over the top considering the issues involved and that it was more in furtherance of his love of arguing than for anything else. At least I did.

You guys can continue your discussions in peace now. I'll hector no more.
Newbee, Sorry I was inhospitable. Your speculation that the entirety of this thread constitutes trolling is interesting. Even more interesting, the derivation of internet trolling comes from the practice of TROLLING FOR NEWBIES, as popularized by usenet veterans of the early '90s who enjoyed drawing gullible "newbies" into circular discussions. I suppose Bryon could theoretically be a troll, albeit a kind of PHILOSOPHER TROLL. In any case, your choice of the moniker Newbee places you at personal risk of being considered TROLL BAIT.

Bryon, it may be appealing to view neutrality as a phenomenon of both time and frequency domains. I tend to think of imaging and resolution mostly in the frequency category, and dynamics in the time category. However, these are linked characterics, insofar as a well-resolved image frames dynamics within a precise boundary. Taken together these characteristics communicate embodiment. A dislocation of dynamics from imaging in this sense may be considered coloration and therefore a failure of neutrality.

IMO the discussion is ultimately down to an enumeration of the taxonomy of coloration. My last post was about changes in sound that I hear when improvements are made according to generally accepted engineering principals(e.g. Schottky rectification, discrete voltage regulation stages, galvanic separation, low-noise resistors, low-resonance capacitors). Others will likely have different perceptions of coloration.
The appearance of this thread certainly could be evidence of the activity of a troll.

LOL! By posting an on-topic discussion on the application of a term that is in common use within the community, he's a troll? Somebody alert the authorities.

I thought the term Troll was reserved for folks who posted threads on controversial subjects in which people are known to have strong diverse opinions and resolution is not possible.

No, in this context a troll would be someone who posts off-topic, insulting, disparaging, and generally rude comments, with no other goal than to disrupt an otherwise civil discussion.
Meanwhile, back in the on-topic world, I think I’ve come up with a theoretical explanation for Bryon’s observations. My earlier mention of entropy got me thinking about another kind of entropy: Shannon entropy in information theory. The entropy I mentioned previously was thermodynamic entropy, for which organization and entropy are inversely related (i.e., more entropy implies less organization, and vice versa). But Shannon entropy describes the predictability of a variable (or process).

The prototypical example to demonstrate Shannon entropy is of a “fair” coin. (A fair coin is one with an equal probability of coming up heads or tails when flipped.) Such a coin is maximally unpredictable and, because there are two possible outcomes, has one bit of entropy (i.e., you need one bit of information to communicate the result of the next flip). A coin that always comes up one way (either heads or tails), is entirely predictable, and therefore has zero bits of entropy. A coin that is biased (i.e., one result is more probable than the other) has entropy somewhere between zero and one, depending on how biased it is.

The main point here is:
Higher entropy => less predictability
Lower entropy => more predictability

What does this have to do with music and playback systems? Everything. Consider the information in the source (the music) to have some amount of entropy, X. (Interestingly, and perhaps helpfully, X will be a measure of how much the source can be compressed without loss.) The colorations/distortions are processes that reduce that entropy. Why? Because those processes are predictable. This is not to say they are fixed, or constant (we’ve discussed processes that are frequency dependent, for example), but they are predictable in that their effect on a signal may be known. And because they conceal/corrupt/eliminate some source information and replace it with predictable information, they reduce (at output) the original entropy of the source to something less than X.

Consider a system that when you play a source, it puts out a 60Hz hum. This system delivers a zero-entropy playback. It is maximally predictable. If you improve the system so that some of the source material starts poking through the hum, the entropy increases. Entropy is maximized when the source is played back with minimal predictable content, (and the only source of unpredictable content is the source itself).

So, getting back to Bryon’s observations, the reason that a more neutral system causes timbres/songs/albums to sound more unique and their ranges sound more diverse, is because they literally are more unique/diverse upon delivery to the ears. Which is to say they have higher entropy.

This also explains our intuitive notion that while some colorations may be desirable, they will still tend to homogenize the music.

This also helps put to rest my concerns over the issue of excess contrast requiring a modification of the terms of the operationalization. The Rube Goldberg machine (as Bryon put it) that I proposed was meant to be one endpoint in the continuum of contrast (the sine wave generator being the other). But to enhance contrast my machine replaced sounds from the source (and more generally the set of all recorded music) with sounds from the (larger) set of all recorded sound. So, I effectively increased the entropy, but I did it by bringing non-source information into the system. Which is cheating because real audio systems don’t do that. The only source (of which I am aware) of outside information (other than the source) that enters an audio system is the power. Power fluctuations and noise on the line, to the extent that they are stochastic processes, would act to increase entropy (and to the extent that they are not stochastic processes, would decrease entropy). But my guess is that their nature is such that they would not act to increase perceived contrast in the music. In any event, I think the notion that the operationalization would push us toward systems of excess contrast can be dispensed with.
Dgarretson – Thanks for clarifying your view on “embodiment.” It is a fascinating topic in its own right. I agree with you that a taxonomy of colorations would be very useful in these discussions. I will spend some time thinking about possible taxonomic schemes. BTW, you are one of funniest posters I’ve seen on A’gon.

Cbw wrote:
Consider the information in the source (the music) to have some amount of entropy, X. (Interestingly, and perhaps helpfully, X will be a measure of how much the source can be compressed without loss.) The colorations/distortions are processes that reduce that entropy. Why? Because those processes are predictable. This is not to say they are fixed, or constant (we’ve discussed processes that are frequency dependent, for example), but they are predictable in that their effect on a signal may be known. And because they conceal/corrupt/eliminate some source information and replace it with predictable information, they reduce (at output) the original entropy of the source to something less than X.

Let me first say: This is impressive. I think it offers a very plausible theory for the effects of neutrality specified in my operationalization, namely, distinctness and diversity. Given your theory, here are some things I believe you would agree to:

(1) Decreasing entropy = Increasing predictability.
(2) Increasing predictability = Increasing coloration.
(3) Increasing coloration = Decreasing neutrality.
.....Therefore:
(4) Decreasing entropy = Decreasing neutrality.
.....And also:
(5) Preservation of entropy = Preservation of neutrality.

Is this correct?