Is New Vinyl Exempt from Loudness Wars?

So Is New Vinyl Exempt from Loudness Wars?
over 50 posts ? oops long post sorry.

Lets think about how the vinyl is made. This is an interesting very easy to read article.

http://www.resoundsound.com/mixing-for-vinyl-dont-fall-for-these-traps/

from there.

while the cutting lathes are truly magnificent machines and properly maintained stand the test of time beautifully… The format itself was not made to reproduce the kind of loud and often distorted music we have today.

Vinyl is an analogue format and sounds great. But with that come some physical limitations. Digital formats like CD and MP3 can reproduce anything where as vinyl is more unforgiving.

What Physical Vinyl Limitations ?

Well the very nature of the cutting act itself by the person and the machine (cutter). The person doing the vinyl master cut needs to be careful when cutting vinyl. Extreme signals can damage the equipment and also put grooves in the vinyl that are too big, which will prevent 20 mins of music a side. Go over 20 mins results in smaller grooves which leads to distortion and other problems like tracking.

Due to this inherent fragile nature of the analog equipment, and these physical limitations of the vinyl disc itself; this IMO just lends itself to making sure more care is taken. The end result can be a better listening product in a "well setup" vinyl rig, when compared with popular music on CD that contains loudness. And the DR ratings do seem to support this too.

But vinyl is a mechanical, resonance vibration setup GAME. There is a learning curve and it really all depends how well it is setup. Also if you look at the turntable setups they use to test records after cut they are IMO only finding out if the record tracks / plays. And this is ok, because the end customer setup and expectations are all different anyway.

Now with digital - IMO because of Digital’s greater potential, the engineers with some popular music are forced to make it loud, because 1) they can, and 2) because of demand by popular artists/markets. So the Digital medium even though it promises potential; the Digital process itself is a victim - in this case.

This phenomena is another example imo of how a lesser design (Vinyl) set up well; can trump a better design (Digital) when it is not done well. But when Digital is done well (recording/mastering) - it is very very good .....in my room anyway.

end of part A
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part B

now RIAA and I’d like to reference posts by Raul and Atmasphere.

Rauliruegas

Dear atmasphere: "" This is absolute nonsense. The RIAA curve has nothing to do with compression.. """"

of course is not the type of digital compression and maybe you are ok with that RIAA curve but if the LP medium is so good why that RIAA curve?, all we know why that kuind of compression in the bass range that you accept it does not means that that severe bass range equalization to lower those frequencies is a compression to me.

That RIAA curve eq. always degrades the original signal but the analog medium has no alternative due to the severe limitation of the LP medium.

So Raul mentions bass compression with the vinyl cutting, and I think that Atmasphere took issue with the word compression? I think Raul meant a word like "cut" or "reduce". I know that both Raul and Atmasphere know what is happening with RIAA.


First what is RIAA? for those reading who are not aware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization#/media/File:RIAA-EQ-Curve.svg

RIAA stands for the Recording Industry Association of America, who set a standard in 1954 for the precise amount of bass cut and treble boost to be applied when records are made, and the converse boost/cut required when records are played back. There were numerous different standards of cut/boost before 1954, each requiring amplifiers with different playback characteristics to achieve accurate reproduction, but the RIAA specification became universally adopted and allowed all record manufacturers and amplifier manufacturers to work with a common standard. All modern records are cut to the RIAA standard.
So, a turntable requires a special amplifier to raise its output voltage to about a volt, and apply RIAA equalisation so the record sounds as it should. This device is known as a phono pre-amp or a phonostage amplifier.

from internet source..

So ...
When cutting the actual vinyl disc -
they do turn the bass down for smaller grooves , and turn high frequencies up - boost to eliminate noise.

Then when we play the actual vinyl disc back through our RIAA phono, bass and treble levels are equalized again. Bass boosted, treble attenuated. Really amazing if you think about it that the whole thing actually works.

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Opinion

So I think Yes to a degree in answer to the original post; and how much depends on how bad the original digital file is to begin with.

Just some observations - thx for starting the thread Mapman.

Here’s one for you btw from the DR database as I know you are a big fan of Springsteen 8^) ---


An artist that audiophiles like to take shots at for sound quality and rightfully so for some of the albums. Flat sound.

Springsteen - Darkness on the Edge of Town.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=springsteen+&album=darkness

Ratings only show digital. Note the ones that are 14 overall - Good. Japan ratings lowest. What’s with that ?

I listen to a 1978 LP. Monster album.

My understanding is that AudioGoneer SLAW has a very special pressing of it. If he owned a reel to reel I would offer a R2R tape for it.
This album helped me through some trying times.

Power of the message over the music ?

Sorry, I've work to do and have been plenty busy. But I was reminded when a promo for this came in, this has been around for a long time, and I thought it might give this crew something fun to chew on. I give you iZotope Vinyl:
https://www.izotope.com/en/products/effects-instruments/vinyl/
Digital can be made to sound however you want it to, good, bad or old fashioned LP.

Lp2cd
Digital can be made to sound however you want it to, good, bad or old fashioned LP.

I don't doubt it. Its too bad for those hear (sic) on Audio-Gon(e), that the popular younger market guides how it sounds.

Cool product Izotape Vinyl

But I think its missing on the real reason that "some" people are addicted to vinyl.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/db/1b/5adb1ba0951979115989f93d43a59fcc.jpg

and lets not forget another real tangible reason for "some"

Moldy smell scenting

... that can only from from finding that treasured 40 year old unused album at your local Good will.

But from what I can see the the real marketing issue with the Izotape vinyl product.....its free.

Everyone knows if you want to sell something, you need to attach a price to it or people will think its not worth buying.
And in this audio hobby - the higher price .........  


Adele 25 update. (for those following this adventure)

I gave the Adele 25 cd one more try...yeah I know ......stubborn.
So charged up the ESL's in room B. No luck same symptoms.
So I turned off the sub and tried it again. Now she appeared to be really screaming at me during the chorus.
My wife was not impressed. I think all this activity triggered by Mapman's thread has now made me sick of Adele.
but all is not lost.....
A memorable moment when my daughter came home and I passed her the cd.
It slipped out of my hand, fell on the floor and the cd case fell apart into 3 pieces.
The Cd fell out. My daughter put the cd in her Apple computer - and guess what - it worked !
Try that with an LP and see what happens.
but the biggest revelation

.....it sounded pretty good.



Hello
by Leroy Sanchez

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlZ9kjCrGJw




Hello
by Lucky Chops


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mOMmP_aKso&feature=youtu.be

notice the lower octave during the chorus. works better for me.
maybe Adele can give it another go ? after she stops counting the money.

coffee done--have a nice day everyone.

ct, thanks for all that.   I agree in general.

BTW Springsteen is a mixed bag for me but Darkness is perhaps my favorite end to end of all his releases and I have no issues with my CD (ripped to music server) copy for what it is.

BTW, playing CDs versus streaming ripped CDs from computer disk storage is another good topic to consider when assessing the overall utlity of modern digital versus vinyl.    My overall satisfaction with digital jumped way into the green when I made that transition.   I have not played a CD in years other than in my car.   Its rip and stream only these days baby!  No looking back.

I know I probably shouldn’t say this but there’s no escape from the horror of overly aggressive dynamic range compression. Shucks, even SACDs and Japanese SHM CDs and gasp DOWNLOADS are not exempt. You might even say you rip what you sow.