I agree with o10 the bass clarinet can be a wonderful thing to hear. But that's not easy, at least in jazz. Years ago I had a Herbie Mann album that included him playing bass clarinet (which somehow disappeared over time) and I've heard Eric Dolphy on a few albums, but there are not a lot of choices. So I Googled it and found this, more than I expected - https://rateyourmusic.com/list/Chzn8r/music_featuring_the_bass_clarinet/ |
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nsp, you caused me to do a little research and I'm glad I did. That album was "great ideas of Western mann" and he played bass clarinet on all numbers. Now I'm really bummed it disappeared from my collection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47RnXpVEvFw |
Speaking of Lester, here's a Mingus minus Mingus tribute. Then for fun, read some of the posted comments.
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Yes, from recordings I'm familiar with Mann played mainly flute.
Frog might jump in with his usual musical expertise but I believe it may be more common for reed players to master more than one instrument that those in other instrument groups. Many tenor sax players also performed on soprano for example (similar fingering?). In the case of Herbie I believe he played regular clarinet as well a bass clarinet while focusing mainly on flute. Certainly that was his focus as his career developed.
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mary jo, that reminded me of what may have been their best known song. Thanks.
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Thanks frog, I expected you would come through with good information. I'd wondered why the flute was included with the reed instruments since it doesn't have a reed. But that was my mistake, it belongs to the broader woodwind family.
For instrument families the real confusion comes with the piano. Some define it as a string instrument while others label it percussion. Guess it can be either.
After listening to that Herbie Mann album again after many years absence I think I understand why I no longer have it. I liked the "sound" of the bass clarinet, but agree the playing was kind of insipid. That's interesting that something can sound pleasant, meaning nice to hear, but not all that enjoyable or stimulating, meaning I want to hear it again, if that makes any sense.
Yes, Dolphy's examples are a whole other ballgame. |
rok, I was not familiar with Gary BB Coleman, but I surely liked that number. o10, that Ray Charles was the one that got everyone up dancing at parties in the early '60s. "Mingus at Antibes" was lost for some time before release, right? I know "Tijuana Moods" self proclaimed to be Charlies' favorite album, but I thought later he said it was the Antibes recording. Now for fans of Miles who may not have heard this, I just discovered a great interview with Carlos Santana and his perspectives on Miles. It runs nearly half an hour so make sure you have time if you begin it. Pretty obvious they had a solid connection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3MvGWFocS8 |
I find a connection between some Middle Eastern instrumentation/melodies and jazz. So "The Astounding Eyes of Rita" was an interesting discovery. Here’s one of my favorites - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVIUQaW8Z9Mrok, early Satchmo takes us back to page one of this post. And back to my earliest exposure to jazz; records played by my dad when I was a little kid! |
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frog, before dad married my mother he had a part time gig in a dance band playing a C melody sax. As you might guess that was during the '30s when they were popular. I'm not aware of many (any?) sax players using those today. I imagine with the size of Dr. Cohen's collection he likely has one though.
Anyway, it was dad's love of jazz from the late '20s to the swing bands from WW 2 that gave me my history lessons in that music. Admittedly that was subconscious at the time as I didn't care for much of it then. But years later I grew to appreciate that foundation as I could hear the influences in what developed afterward. Then too I discovered I really did love music from such as Louie Armstrong and Jack Teagarden, as I've confessed here before.
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o10, plus any others of course, regarding Albert King, years ago I saw this session on PBS. Later I found an expanded link on YouTube, and shortly after that an LP from that session. Now this appears to be the full program of Albert King with Stevie Ray Vaughan -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-apz26BfHY |
I was proud then, and I'm proud today. Never wore any double-knits! ;^)
(Although I did have one leisure suit in the '70s. But it was linen.) ;^))))
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o10, with pianists better known as vocalists I thought you might be about to post Nat King Cole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrdJS4ZxRbAMaybe I'm unusual but I think of Nina as both, not just a singer. I don't recall hearing her singing without accompanying herself on piano in fact. |
And now, due to a diminishing number of requests (as the old club MC would say), a last comment from me about the bass clarinet. Like many of you I do have interests in other music besides jazz (Dead Can Dance o10?) and I attended our local symphony Saturday evening. The main performance was Mahler’s "The Song of the Earth". He’s not a favorite of mine but I though I should give it a chance. Anyway I noted the instrumentation included bass clarinet. Sure enough, there were at least three times where that distinctive mellow low tone penetrated through the other instruments, reminding me again I do like that sound. That was the best part of the hour-long piece.
o10, yet another appreciation we share. Growing up I heard multiple times that boys didn’t notice girls until our early teens, about the time facial hair began to show. That was not true for me. I had a crush on a girl in my kindergarten class. Decades later I still remember her name even. We moved and I lost track of her by the 3rd grade but I still remember how cute she was and how that made me feel. ;^)
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o10, wow, there was a time when I considered myself a film buff. Apparently no longer. I don't remember that film at all. And what a cast with Scorsese directing!! Thanks for introducing me to that one.
That Mahler chamber piece was interesting. But I'd need to hear it a couple of times to form any real judgement. I can say it has more potential than what I heard Saturday evening.
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rok, yes I believe Hyman is regarded as a very accomplished pianist. I have a couple of his recordings but they are still packed away so can't refresh my memory for titles. He has done several tribute albums.
The last one was funny. Ray Brown wiping away the sweat BEFORE keeping up with Peterson on a number. He probably needed to do it again afterwards. ;^)
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I missed the anniversary of this thread last month, so here is an overdue and heartfelt THANKS to o10 for initiating all our discussions! His jazz post more than seven years ago is now approaching 21,000 comments. There are only a hand full of other music subjects with >1K posts so this popularity is overwhelming. I've been reminded of music not heard for some time, experienced new music, had technical aspects of music explained, enjoyed descriptions of other's introductions to jazz and live performance experiences, and gained insight for some of the better known artists of this art from. O10's comments on Miles was one of the latter and the thing that prompted me to offer this thanks for initiating his thread. Way to go big guy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I32ft4Sse4 |
In college in the early '60s the on campus film series included "Jazz On A Summer's Day". This was one of my favorite numbers from the film. It was so different from anything else I'd heard up to that time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCVg1UOADO8&list=RDOCVg1UOADO8&start_radio=1Aside from the music I loved much of the photography. That captured the abstract feeling of the music with images such as these water reflections which fit perfectly. Later I wondered if the film crew had been influenced by Disney's "Fantasia", or if it was more spontaneous? I've never read any discussion of that aspect. |
o10, I meant influence with the imagery in the cinematography, not the music. Some of those reflected water shots brought back a bit of "Fantasia". Thanks for that version of "Train and the River". I’ve heard a couple others but never with Giuffre on baritone. I liked it, but there is something special about the interplay with Brookmeyer. Funny thing about West Coast jazz, some feel it doesn’t swing. Yes, some can be pretty mellow but that doesn’t mean none of it can bounce along nicely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSfAKvvPQHk |
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orpheus, since you listen to jazz station streaming, have you ever tried KSDS FM, the City College station in San Diego? I favor music from the '50s to early '70s and they continue to cover quite a lot of that. https://www.jazz88.org/default.aspI started listening to jazz in the late '50s as I finished high school. They say we favor what we grew up with and in large part that is true for me. Now a good portion of my 3K LP collection is jazz from that era. |
frogman, I consider "smooth jazz" to be an oxymoron. For me a better term is elevator music! In fact I find it embarrassing that the concept seems to have originated by a FM station here in San Diego several years ago. There is even a locally published magazine devoted to it. Of course everyone should have the freedom for music of their own choosing, just don't bastardize that stuff by associating it with jazz.
Art Blakey must be rolling over in his grave! ;^)
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tablejock, my comment was based upon never hearing the term (as a musical category) until the San Diego station began advertising it. While I live somewhat close to LA I didn't search out jazz stations from there. So no claim to authenticity about the origin of the label.
I agree there was an overall decline in interest in straight ahead jazz, but the faithful never turned out the lights.
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Frustration with bad liner notes/quality control!
I suspect we all find this from time to time, but it seems like a company as large as Columbia could do a better job -- or maybe it is because they are so big!?
Monk is a long time favorite and I have more than 20 of his albums. Recently I rediscovered I have two copies of "Who's Afraid of The Big Band Monk?". A ridiculous cover but interesting music.
One copy is likely an original release (red label w/ dark yellow lettering), since it has a "Radio Station Service" sticker on the cover. The other has identical jacket info, including KG 32892 number, but heavier vinyl (180 g?) and the more current red label with black printing and COLUMBIA at the top in white. Both are two record sets, one from a "1964" concert, the other from 1968.
However, while the earlier release numbers the sides 1-4, the newer album numbers each record 1-2. That's not so bad except the gate-fold album continues to identify the cuts for sides 1-4 on the newer album. In addition, both copies list incorrect information identifying musicians and the arranger for two of the four sides.
Two of the four sides were taken from the earlier release, "Big Band and Quartet in Concert" (CS 8964), identified as Dec. 30, 1963, which I had to reference to straighten out the confusion of the later double album.
Now certainly the occasional misprint or even mis-information can slip through. But when an album is reissued, and with sufficient concern to utilize heavier vinyl, why wouldn't more care be exercised to correct the printed information? And then they compounded the liner note errors by mis-numbering the new pressings! At least I enjoyed the music.
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I agree about Peterson frogman. I've owned that LP for years, along with the Andre Previn Trio version which I enjoy also. But Oscar's lightening fingers and ability to infuse emotion keep that atop anything I've heard from other artists.
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"o", thanks for posting. That is from the Previn album I have.
Not sure if this is true but I read someplace that Previn's "My Fair Lady" was the top selling jazz LP for a number of years. I have both but prefer "West Side Story", probably because I simply like the music better.
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"factors that determine the music we like" Absolutely o.
My dad played in a dance band in the '30s and retained a love for music of that era, mainly Louis Armstrong. He had lots of records so I heard that growing up in the late '40s and '50s (yes, I'm pretty old).
I didn't care for any of it at the time, my interest in music really began with rock and roll in the mid-'50s. That expanded to include first folk music (at least the Kingston Trio type if not hard-core) and by a senior in HS contemporary jazz. It was not until a couple of decades later that I truly appreciated Satch and Jack Teagarden (now my favorites from my dad's era).
Today my primary interest in jazz is for artists/recordings from the mid-50s to the mid-70s. I can appreciate both earlier and more recent artists, but my real love remains for those I heard as my musical tastes developed.
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frogman, you're welcome, and thanks for the additional comments. You conveyed many of my own impressions, including a little preference for Peterson's emotion, while still appreciating Previn's approach.
Also orpheus, I'll come back to listing recommendations I took away from my dad's music. I tried twice yesterday but lost what I'd written before completing it so gave up in frustration. :^(
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Re: Previn
frogman and others, as you may know, he recorded several albums based upon Broadway show tunes. As mentioned "My Fair Lady" was a top selling jazz album for a number of years. Besides that and WSS I have "Bells are Ringing" and "Lt'l Abner". I consider one of the pluses in all that series was Shelly Mann as part of the trio, always tasty drumming. |
o10, many thanks for that link to the Beethoven/Monk overlay by Brown and Almeida. I heard that performed live years ago by Almeida and Bob Magnusson, plucked, no bowing. It was mesmerizing but it was not recorded and I never found another good rendition until this one. Now, for anyone here who may not have seen the video of the process of shooting the "Great Day in Harlem" photo, here’s a link - https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hsimp=yhs-att_001&hspart=att&p=A+Great+Day+In+Harl... |
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orpheus, you suggested I post some of dad's favorite music. As further introduction I'll relate that the first concert I attended was Armstrong with his All Stars sometime between 1950 and '52. I was VERY young and looking back overwhelmed (but grateful) my parents took me along. Here's "Rockin' Chair" from 1947 with Teagarden singing lead. This is the version from the Town Hall Concert I have in a 78 album handed down from dad. Louie had some great upper register then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQm-2N-TW24Then here's "Ain't Misbehavin" from that same concert. These versions swing more than the studio versions of the same tunes that I've heard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzmc0wbL8mQTeagarden with one of his signature songs, "Stars Fell on Alabama". I like him better with Satch and/or small groups than in larger orchestras like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiqBY6lhRaIAnother major favorite was Red Nichols and His Five Pennies. Here's "After You've Gone" from 1930, and just check out the sidemen! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geasRdRR_18And lastly, another favorite band, but not well known, was McKinney's Cotton Pickers out of Detroit (I grew up in MI). One of their recordings also from 1930, "Baby Won't You Please Come Home". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4iH_AFRid0And "I Found A New Baby" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY5FB-k3JUwTo wrap it up, some years ago I stumbled on an LP, "The New McKinney's Cotton Pickers", a Bountiful Record from 1972. That includes vocals by Dave Wilborn who was in the original band. I couldn't find anything by them on YouTube so this will have to do as a modern rendition of a MCP arrangement, "Tight Like That". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFHCIU4IzCgHope you and others find something new here to enjoy. |
orpheus, thanks for listening to those cuts. I can't say I'm surprised that you couldn't "get into it". It took me more than 20 years myself to appreciate some of those performances. And I'll admit some of my more recent reactions are influenced by memories of dad.
But while my interest in jazz expanded from Brubeck to Monk to Ornette, there is not much prior to around 1950 that I care to listen to. At the same time "Rockin' Chair" always knocks me out with its spirit, humor, and the swell at the end.
Anyway, I'm glad that alex and frogman perhaps discovered something new to enjoy. Hopefully others did as well, even without replying here.
frogman, you may be right about the stylistic difference related to time and the evolution of other artists. But I tend to attribute it more to the influence of the live audience and how that encouraged each All Star to dig a little deeper. ;^)
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orpheus, agreed. Our tastes seem to be mainly a combination of exposure and personality traits so they can be difficult to predict.
In addition to jazz I listen to a wide variety of music, including classic rock, blues, Celtic, bluegrass/string band/mountain music, soundtracks, and classical (mainly symphonic). However among my approximately 3,000 LPs the greatest representation is Brubeck, Miles, and Monk where I have at least 30 albums by each. So my tastes are broad and yet somewhat focused at the same time. What does that say about my personality? ;^)
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rok, I think the first question to ask is "are there any stations still broadcasting material I like within my reception area?". No turner is a bargain if it does not pull in what you'd enjoy listening to.
After that, remember to old-timer advice: an average tuner with a good antenna will outperform a good tuner with a poor antenna.
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O10, if you might remember, the beginning of the Mingus "Haitian Fight Song" was featured in a TV commercial a few years ago. I don't remember the product but it opened with an old man, then he was picked up by his grandson to go out on some adventure. Of course I loved the music long before that but it was one of the few commercials I actually looked forward to seeing again. ;^)
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o10, here is a surprising version of "Goodbye Porkpie Hat". Who would expect it from a rock guitarist? There are a few others as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImxM4Rj5pOQThen, "Is Mingus volatile or what?". Since you're a fan, and for any others here as well, have you read his bio, "Beneath The Underdog"? Likely more fiction than truth but still fascinating. |
Thanks ghosthouse, I did check out Summers earlier. I was not familiar with him. I prefer Beck, but that could be due to familiarity. I've had his album for many years.
Any others here who didn't open that link, there are more versions of GPH to be found in the additional links along the right side.
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Both "Mingus Dynasty" and "Ah Um" were from his brief contract period with Columbia, most likely why sidemen are the same. Of course Danny Richmond stayed with Mingus for years regardless of other changes.
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o10, I went back to listed to the track I posted and it sounded reasonably clean and about as good as other YouTube links I've listened to. So no idea why what you heard was so poor. Did you try any of the other links listed along the right of the screen?
I have a fairly good audio system and a large collection of LPs and CDs. So that is the source of all my serious listening. Recording quality is important to me in so far as not wanting it to detract from the music. The only time I bother with YouTube on my computer is to hear suggested links such as those posted here. |
o10, if anyone responded to Caravan with this I apologize, I don't take the time to read everything here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbgLJt50ssRegarding nicknames, I've always been amused but the "royalty" titles -- King, Duke, Pres, Count, etc. |
o10, thanks for the kind words. It can be frustrating to read responses from folks who only seem to want to be argumentative, or at the least didn't bother to carefully read something posted before jumping in with inappropriate comments.
frogman, thanks for that link. I have that Monk Ellington album among my collection of his recordings but have not played it in years. Now I need to dig it out so I can "dig it" again. ;^)
In general I do differentiate between a title or general reference, typically by the media, such as "King of Swing" or "Queen of the blues" and a moniker or nickname assumed by a musician to the point they use it to refer to themselves. And while I'm not a sociologist or expert in this area, I always assumed that many black musicians appropriated "royalty" first names as a way to both demand respect for their talents and to honor the tradition started back in the very early 1900s, possibly by "King" Oliver.
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