Jazz for aficionados

Fair enough, O-1O,  but I could not imagine that “giving the floor” referred to an invitation to comment (again) on clips that have been commented on God knows how many times previously.   Nothing necessarily wrong with that I suppose, but not exactly the first thing that comes to mind.  Very good and classic recordings (again).  

Frogman, you didn't even read the post, and you still haven't read it, or if you did, you didn't understand it.

The post was about how significant Pepper Adams contributions were, which is part of why Rok said they were better than the originals.

You still didn't hear what I was specifically speaking of.

Rok, I know Wynton is your main man, but Africa in "hard-bop" is truly rediculous. That's where the trolly jumped the tracks; he might as well said that African Americans are speaking in "Ojibway" or some tribal language without knowing it.

Because I can't hear African in the jazz drums doesn't mean it's not there. The drumer doesn't know he's putting out some African beats because they're in code.


Rok, this is Frogmans paragraph, could you translate it for me?

"First, the fact that any one listener cannot “hear” African rhythms as the listener knows and understands them in jazz does not mean that those rhythms are not there; or, at least, serve as the foundation for those jazz rhythms as they are understood. It is like insisting that European based chord progressions and harmony do not exist in the music because the listener cannot hear them as such."

Call this the 'hard-bop' African drum code.

***** Rok, I know Wynton is your main man, but Africa in "hard-bop" is truly rediculous. That's where the trolly jumped the tracks; he might as well said that African Americans are speaking in "Ojibway" or some tribal language without knowing it.*****

I didn't read the article, but I have heard it all before.  SOME black people love the idea of anything being traced back to Africa.   They want so badly want to have an 'Old Country', like the European groups in this country.   They are in search of their 'culture', while overlooking the tremendous contributions they have made to this culture.They think saying something is from Africa gives it gravitas and importance.  BS!

Back in the day a lot of black folk wore their hair in an 'Afro' style, well, I have never seen Africans wear their hair like that, and I knew quite a few in Germany and in college.   We went through the Dashiki stuff.   We give our children stupid names, thinking they are African in origin.  BS!! They also want to be African partly because they felt rejected by this country.   A Psychiatrist would have a field day figuring all this out.   It's complicated.

So, if a Jazz player has a choice of saying my music originated on a cotton plantation in Mississippi(for instance), or in some mythical Kingdom in Africa, guess what sports fans?   Remember, we have also been convinced that the most horrible / degrading thing a human being can be required to do, is pick cotton.

Wynton was saying what was expected of him.   Nothing more.   If that's the price to stay at Lincoln Center, so be it.   He is still the most important man in Jazz.

Cheers

******"First, the fact that any one listener cannot “hear” African rhythms as the listener knows and understands them in jazz does not mean that those rhythms are not there; or, at least, serve as the foundation for those jazz rhythms as they are understood. It is like insisting that European based chord progressions and harmony do not exist in the music because the listener cannot hear them as such."******

The Frogman is saying that just because we amateurs(you & me) can't hear the African stuff as we understand African stuff, i.e. Hollywood, that does not mean the African stuff is not there.

That's a fair statement.

HOWEVER, I have asked The Frogman on many occasions to post a clip of Jazz in which he can then point out to us the African stuff as we listen.   Of course he would also have to compare it with indigenous African music from the 17th century.   Nothing!

Apparently he is accepting this stuff on blind faith.

Food for thought.   Back in the 20s and early 30s, white people said they had invented Jazz.  Where was the African crowd then?   Just asking.

Cheers