***Okra in a taco?****
Okra in anything is GREAT! One of my favorite foods.
****Was this a set-up, Acman3? :-)****
If it was, it was lost on me. I had no idea they had exchanged 'pleasantries'. But, it is good to know, that Wynton has returned fire.
****In most respects any comparison of the two players is as pointless****
Not to mention being an insult to Marsalis. You want to compare him in a manner to show he has weakness, let's try Hubbard, Morgan, Miles. Not Lester Bowie!
****is as absurd as claiming that Stravinsky is not worthy to be considered one of the great classical composers.*****
This is the ONLY thing you have ever said, ever, that I just don't get. I think the statement in the previous post was "Stravinky ranks right up there with Mozart"!! You cannot be serious!
****For this listener it's fairly simple: the Lester Bowie clip had me truly engaged; I wanted to hear it in its entirety. Why?....considering the funky (as in bad) trumpet playing. Hard to put into words. First of all, that kind of playing requires a certain level of skill and control in order to "sound bad" (hang in there, Rok). Maybe it was the undeniable humor in his playing. But, I think most of all it's something that is impossible to really identify. IT JUST DID. The vibe, the timing, the unpredictability, the occasional and unexpected references to the traditional simply did the job of telling a convincing story that made me want to listen from beginning to end.****
It is true that some things can be so awful you cannot turn away.
I think Mozart did a piece called, or subtitled, 'A Musical Joke" He may have broken every 'rule' in classical composition, but, its's a nice piece of music. It's still being recorded today.
The Bowie thing was just noise.
It's funny, only if you knew a Great trumpet playing was messing around. Since I have never heard of this player, I took it different, even though I knew it was supposed to be funny. And I responded in that manner.
Besides I am not trying to judge this man's entire career on one throw-a-way tune. That is the only thing I have ever heard him play.
****There is no "jealousy" involved here and to suggest otherwise is plain silly and a smoke screen.*****
I meant his peers, not you personally. And to suggest otherwise would indeed be silly. You should know this better than the layman.
We really have no disagreement. I think we both know where the two players stand in Jazz.
Question:
Why is Jazz the only genre where the music has to undergo constant change or so-called 'progress'. Folks have no problem listening to Bach, Mozart etc... for centuries!!
Listening to Cab Calloway do 'minnie the moochie' on pbs as I type. It don't get any better. How you gonna 'improve' it?
Cheers |
Let's talk about food for a moment. There is a lot to be said for eating a great meal at a fine French restaurant whose chef is trained and skilled in the art of traditional French cuisine and who prepares dishes which are delectable in their perfection. There's also a lot to be said for finding that little taco joint that serves up some really amazing tacos which are a little different every time you go there. The cook is a guy who simply has "that thing" that allows him to turn whatever ingredients he found at the market that morning into something really special. Okra in a taco? Well, he couldn't find good looking chiles that morning; and somehow it worked. There's really no point in comparing the two "dining" experiences as they are completely different and it's like claiming that a banana is better than an orange. Yet, if I was forced to eat at only one of the two establishments for several days in a row, I (and many others) would take the taco joint in a second. For some, the funkiness and unpredictability in the taco joint's menu may be too much to take. This analogy may be a little forced, but it goes (hopefully) to the subject of subjective reaction to music.
I had promised myself that I would never again comment about Wynton Marsalis on this thread; oh well. Discussions on the subject have a tendency to get very heated and confrontational; unnecessarily so, and I would hope that the reasons why there are differences of opinion about Wynton's ultimate relevance can be considered without drama. So, why am I bringing up the subject again, and risk incurring the wrath of Rok? Well, because he brought it up (again!?!) and, even more importantly, because Acman3's contribution of the Lester Bowie clip on the heels of Rok's reference to Wynton makes it irresistible since these two players have been very publicly critical of each other. Was this a set-up, Acman3? :-) In most respects any comparison of the two players is as pointless as comparing the two restaurants, but it creates a good backdrop for discussing what is certainly on of the most interesting subjects in art; subjective reaction.
IMO, to dismiss contemporary, post-bop, avante-garde, what-ever-we -want-to-call-it jazz is not only closed minded and plain silly, but worst of all points to not truly understanding the true spirit of jazz. We can agree to disagree or simply not like the direction that jazz has gone in over the last several decades; but if we honor Jazz's spirit we have to, at least, try to understand why the practitioners of the art feel the way they do. Jazz evolves, it has to; and to not give credence to the art of those participating in its evolution (like the result, or not) is as absurd as claiming that Stravinsky is not worthy to be considered one of the great classical composers.
For this listener it's fairly simple: the Lester Bowie clip had me truly engaged; I wanted to hear it in its entirety. Why?....considering the funky (as in bad) trumpet playing. Hard to put into words. First of all, that kind of playing requires a certain level of skill and control in order to "sound bad" (hang in there, Rok). Maybe it was the undeniable humor in his playing. But, I think most of all it's something that is impossible to really identify. IT JUST DID. The vibe, the timing, the unpredictability, the occasional and unexpected references to the traditional simply did the job of telling a convincing story that made me want to listen from beginning to end. Now, I would rather listen to Lee Morgan's brand of story telling, but that's not the point. The point is that they are both convincing with their story telling skills. I simply prefer one over the other; but respect both. Often, when I listen to Wynton I marvel at the beauty of his "penmanship", but not so much the story. The man is phenom and has garnered a tremendous amount acclaim (awards); deservedly so and it would be silly to claim otherwise. But, I think that precisely because of this the very highest form of scrutiny is also appropriate. There is no "jealousy" involved here and to suggest otherwise is plain silly and a smoke screen. There are legitimate issues for those practitioners (like Bowie) whose mission it is to continually push the boundaries of the art forward and why there is resistance to a traditionalist approach should be obvious. We have a tendency to focus on the criticism of Wynton by some like Bowie, but it's important to remember that Wynton has always been critical and very condescending of players like Bowie.
Loved the clip. Thanks for sharing. |
At last, a trumpet player with whom I can relate :) I sounded just like that in high school :) Very 'interesting' clip.
I have at least two CDs with Lester Bowie.
Malachi Thompson & Africa Brass -- BUDDY BOLDEN'S RAG featuring Lester Bowie
and
Roscoe Mitchell Sextet -- SOUND
When I first glanced at your post, I thought I would pull them out and listen to them. After listenting to your clip, I am now afraid to listen to them. :) But, 'Buddy Bolden's Rag' should be safe. That's Nawlins!!
Both CDs are on the DELMARK label. That label is mostly associated with Chicago-based Blues artists. The Junior Wells and Buddy Guy crowd. Seems like an unlikely label for this type music.
Good Clip.
Today, I just made a Joyful noise.
The Fairfield Four -- STANDING IN THE SAFETY ZONE
Canticleer -- WHERE THE SUN WILL NEVER GO DOWN
Canticleer -- HOW SWEET THE SOUND
Original Cast -- THE GOSPEL AT COLONUS
The Human Voice! Wow!
Cheers |
|
Nice clip Acman3; lots of famous faces in that crowd. In order of appearence:
Frank (juiced and showing surprisingly bad time clapping his hands :-)
Betty White
Skitch Henderson
Ernest Borgnine
Ella
Tony Bennett
Jean Stapleton
Barry Manilow
Merv Griffin
Chris Isaak
Frankie Valli (?)
Carol Channing
Sidney Poitier
Bea Arthur
Those were the famous ones that I spotted. Now for the important ones :-)
Henry Mancini (piano/leader)
Jack Sperling (drums)
Cootie Williams (trumpet)
Conrad Gozzo (trumpet)
Pete Candoli (trumpet)
Dick Nash (trombone)
Bill Watrous (trombone)
Dan Block (alto sax)
Plas Johnson ? (tenor) |
Today's Playlist:
Ornette Coleman -- SOUND MUSEUM HIDDEN MAN
Not nearly as irritating as I thought it would be. This stuff must be growing on me. BUT, I do think music like this should be 'explained' in the liner notes.
Coleman played Sax, Violin and Trumpet!! His playing was so compelling to me, I just forgot all my preconceived notions about his music. I did recognize "what a friend we have in Jesus"
There is a 'companion' CD to this one entitled 'Sound Museum Three Women'. It contains the same tunes plus one more!?!? Enough for one day, I will listen to the Three Women later.
Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis / Harry "Sweets" Adison / Al Grey --
JAZZ AT THE PHILHARMONIC 1983
These greats are not so much playing as having a nice, relaxed (perfect tempo), conversation. The interplay between them is just awesome. Just great! Perfect? Nothing to say, you must hear it. A must have!
This is Jazz at it's best.
Chico Freeman -- DESTINY'S DANCE
This is as 'modern' as Jazz needs to be. Modern but still Jazz. Wynton Marsalis on trumpet. A young Wynton, the notes say. Recorded in 1981, so I googled Wynton to see how old that would make him. Born 1961 so he was 20 on this recording. While I was on the Wiki page I read his entry. WOW!!! Is there any award or honor this man has not received?? I mean world wide.
Please take a moment ro read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wynton_Marsalis
For a good laugh, don't miss the section entitled CRITICISMS. I was laughing out loud for real. What a bunch of jerks. The envy and jealousy is almost palpable.
Required reading for all Wynton Bashers!!
Cheers |
*****The coolest video ever!*****
It could be!!!
Great atmosphere, singing and playing. The Band was awesome. I think I recognized everyone the camera zoomed in on. Just don't ask me to name them. Comes with age.
Good to see Ella. They are all gone now. :(
Frank looked amazingly like Herbert von Karajan did in his later years. After his, Karajan's, pompadour collapsed. :)
Good clip.
Cheers |
|
Today's Listen:
Michel Legrand -- LEGRAND JAZZ
Jazz standards arranged by the Frenchman Michel Legrand. Great lineup.
Miles, Trane, Evans, Woods, Ben Webster and many more. Just by looking at the photos in the booklet, and reading the notes, it is obvious that this guy is full of himself!!
They came close to giving him credit for creating Jazz. Well, at least it seemed that way.
I will have to admit that I liked the arrangments. He managed to avoid sterlizing the music. And of course the playing was great.
Started off with the Thomas 'Fats' Waller tune 'The Jitterbug Waltz'. Always like to see the music of 'Fats' Waller represented. Speaking of underrated!
Some of the photos in the booklet show him apparently 'directing' the best players in Jazz. I hate that!
Sonny Clark -- SONNY'S CRIB
One of the better Blue Note era recordings. Excellent material and very cohesive playing. Trane and Donald Byrd on board.
A must have!
Phineas Newborn Jr -- THE GREAT JAZZ PIANO OF PHINEAS NEWBORN
This guy has great skill on the keyboards. Tunes by Bud Powell, Bobby Timmons, Miles, Rollins and Ellington. Leroy Vinnegar on Bass on half the tunes, Sam Jones on the other half.
I remember Vinnegar from Les McCann's 'Swiss Movement'. Nice set. If you like Newborn, this is one of his best.
Cheers |
Chazro, agree about Woods; one of the greats. BTW, he was married to Charlie Parker's wife. I posted this a while ago and think it fell through the cracks. Interesting look at his life as a jazz musician with some great commentary: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJxmCzYpoo |
|
Rok, I love both the Coltrane and the Ellington.
Another live Coltrane recording, Live at the Half Note, was made about a year and a half latter, finds Coltrane in transition. Not quite the full throttle sax monster he would be in 3 to 6 months on Live in Seattle, but heading in that direction. |
|
Today's Listen:
John Coltrane -- COLTRANE LIVE AT BIRDLAND
Great set. This was before he got in his Sunship and took off for Stellar Regions. Great version of Afro-Blue.
The recording had problems. Coltrane from the left speaker, Piano and bass inbetween and the drums from the right speaker! Sucks. But the music is exceptional.
Duke Ellington -- AND HIS MOTHER CALLED HIM BILL
Recorded in honor and memory of Billy Strayhorn. My favorite Ellington disc. The Ellington Band!! What an instrument!
Anyone interested in hearing great Sax playing should listen to this CD. Hodges on 'Blood Count'!! Strayhorn died about 6 months prior to this recording. He and Ellington were very close when it came to composing and arranging.
Very eloquent notes in the liner from Ellington, about Strayhorn. Great loss.
Doc Cheatham/Nicholas Payton -- DOC CHEATHAM & NICHOLAS PAYTON
Lazy down-home Nawlins style Jazz. Cheatham sings. He really should not. Nice relaxed playing by two guys who keep the flame alive. Mostly well known standards.
The Ellington and Coltrane are must haves.
Cheers |
LOVE Sophisticated Giant! I've got my original beat up vinyl copy, a used European pristine vinyl copy, and the CD! Columbia released 'Montreux Summit', 2 dbl LP's featuring their artist roster live in Montreux during the 70's. Largely a monster Fusion-fest but sprinkled in the mix were solo cuts of Stan Getz AND a few cuts featuring Dexter and his Sophisticated Giant band, very rare and special for a fan such as myself.
Also LOVE Phil Woods, I own close to 20 different recordings of his. I'd recommend:
Phil & Quill
Rights Of Swing
Musique Du Bois
Images (W/Michel LeGrand) - side B
Live From the Showboat
Song For Sisyphus
Phil Woods/Lew Tabakin
Evolution (W/the Little Big band)
Real life (also w/LBG)
An Affair To Remember
Celebration
Groovin' To Marty Paich
American Songbook
....and this is just some, not all, of my PW collection. What's amazing is that I probably own less than 50% of his discography! He's been playing for almost as long as I've been alive (60). One of the last of the originals still with us. I think he was married to Charlie Parker's daughter, a true living legend! |
Great stuff, Acman3. Sophisticated Giant was one of his first recordings after his return to the states from Europe. The live clip with Kenny Drew is wonderful and appropriate given a discussion in another thread about pop tunes as jazz vehicles. I saw Dexter at the Vanguard a few times in the late seventies/early eighties and they were unforgettable experiences. Thanks for sharing. |
|
|
I listened to this today:
Irakere -- THE BEST OF IRAKERE
Plenty of Latin brass vibrato and of course the incomparable Cuban percussion. Many of the future heavyweights of Cuban Jazz are here. With D'Rivera, Sandoval and Valdes on board, what's not to like. Best heard next to a dance floor.
Andrew Hill -- POINT OF DEPARTURE
I made it through 2 tracks today. An improvement, but I'm still not there yet.
Great lineup and they all seem to play well, and know what they were doing, I just didn't know.
Maynard Ferguson -- CONQUISTADOR
The purists and snobs of Jazz pan it, but I love it! Great flute work on 'Theme from Star Trek'.
Irakere and Ferguson were fun. Hill and Dolphy and company, were thinking too much.
Cheers |
***** I guarantee you that you can play me ANYTHING that Phil Woods ever did and after two measures, I would be able to tell you that it was Phil.******
Well, since I don't have anything by Woods, he is not on my 'Instant Recognition' list. Didn't even realize he was on the MJQ disc until I played it the other day.
He also appears on 'The Jazz Soul of Porgy & Bess'. How anyone could screw that up, is beyond me, but they managed.
No fault of Woods, he was just a member of the sax section. Much younger and slimmer. Lousy arrangements.
Cheers |
****Turned out it was Phil Woods!! Grrrrrrrrr. ****
I can't resist. Why Grrrrrrr?
****He can play.****
You think?!
****Beautiful tone and phrasing****
In the interest of the never ending discussion about the benefits of fine tuning one's listening skills, I guarantee you that you can play me ANYTHING that Phil Woods ever did and after two measures, I would be able to tell you that it was Phil. Is that a benefit? You bet; well, at the very least, you wouldn't have to get up from your chair to see who was playing :-) |
Things I listened to Today:
Keith Jarrett -- THE KOLN CONCERT
Tour de force. Quite an accomplishment for a full CD of unaccompanied Jazz piano.
Howlin' Wolf -- THE CHESS BOX CD #2
Warning!! This is the real blues. Might be a little raw for some. One of the all time great bluesmen. All of his best stuff is on the Chess Box 3-CD set. A Must have fort any blues lover.
Labi Siffre -- SO STRONG
Exceptional songs. Great and unique voice. Not a weak track on the disc. This is an example of great song writing.
Modern Jazz Quartet -- MJQ & FRIENDS
Typical MJQ, which means, very good. They play each tune with a different 'friend'.
I higly recommend them all.
In the ionterest of full disclosure, when I played the MJQ disc, on the tune 'All the things you are' I had to get up and go read the notes to see who was on sax. Turned out it was Phil Woods!! Grrrrrrrrr. He can play. Beautiful tone and phrasing.
Cheers |
Thanks for clarifying, I thought I remembered you saying that you played trumpet. It was probably because of this comment that I misinterpreted,
****I was led to Mr. Harrell in the mid eighties by a trumpet player/teacher who worked....****
and your affinity for Dave Douglas. Anyway, nice Howard McGhee clips; thanks. |
|
Frogman, I own, and make loud noises with a tenor sax. I would hardly call it playing. ;} No trumpet.
I read that a young Miles Davis studied the way Mcghee played. If you think about how Miles played with Charlie Parker in the late 40's, it may be true. It is said he was among the best, but kept having drug problems and jail time. |
Nice, Acman3; you did it again, finding yet another great player that we hadn't covered. As a trumpet player yourself, I am sure you notice the similarity of tone to Dizzy's. He was one of the first trumpet beboppers and I know his playing from some of Charlie Parker's records. There is a Bird compilation titled "Bird In Time" that features McGhee and includes some amazing interviews and commentary about Bird that is worth having. Thanks for sharing. |
I have really enjoyed the commentary. Enjoyed the musical suggestions. May it continue. |
|
Aficionados:
Today is the first anniversary of this thread. We seem to be on our last leg, but we made it. :)
Cheers |
Even better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HXFzkX8sOY
Cheers |
BTW, Wynton seems to be Gaining and Losing. Weight and hair!
Cheers |
Who'd a thunk it?? He never strays far from Nawlins. This is about as close to the source as you can get. Great footage. Who the heck is, or rather was, Abram Wilson?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK2MLRlDWzo
Cheers |
Also on Monk's 'Genius of Modern Music' 1 & 2.
Cheers |
Fabulous! Isn't it amazing how the list of great players doesn't seem to end. I first became acquainted with Sahib Shihab from his work on the recordings of the Francy Boland/Kenny Clarke Big Band; probably the greatest of the European big bands and composed of many American players living in Europe. Notice who else is on this recording: Benny Bailey, one of the most exciting trumpet players ever (Less MacCann "Compared To What"). Great stuff and thanks for sharing. |
|
The Frogman:
Thanks for the info. I was listening to Mingus' 'Tijuana Moods' this morning. A 2CD set. The entire CD #2 is just alternate takes of CD#1. Great music.
Cheers |
During a recording session multiple "takes" (a recorded performance beginning to end) of a tune are usually recorded. Sometimes the first performance of the tune is so good that the players (and/or producer) feel there is no need for another and that is what one hears on the final product; and, since there is a certain mystique (due to the spontaneity factor) around "first" takes they will sometimes be labeled as such on the LP/CD. However, even in these cases they will record "alternate" takes as backups in case of later technical issues with the "first" or simply a change of opinion about the musical merit of it. These alternate takes are considered good enough for the final product even of they are not used; although they may be included and labeled as such (usually in later compilations).
Recordings (or takes) can get damaged or lost because of the effects of time or human error and viable alternate takes may not exist. What may be left are simply "first" or "second" takes that may or may not have been intended for the final product. The inclusion of a "second" take is more than likely a way to complete the document of that recording session for aficionados who are eager to hear every available bit of the artist's work even if not the very best. |
Hi Rok - can't answer your question without hearing the takes. A "take" is one time through the piece straight through while recording. So what you have there are two different takes of the exact same piece from the same session, probably done back to back. |
Jazz Aficionados:
I am listening to a CD by Monk entitled "Genius of Modern Music Vol Two"
There are 18 tracks. A lot for a Monk record. Four of the tunes are listed twice, with 'Alternate take' in parenthesis by the second listing. We are all familiar with this.
One tune, 'Sixteen', is listed twice also, but with the words 'First Take' and 'Second Take' in parenthesis besides them.
What is the difference between these 'takes'?
Cheers |
Hey Rok - I have actually been very busy myself, and will be through the spring. Won't have much time to listen. I did have an old friend from school visiting for a few days, and we did a ton of listening to various classical things, no jazz, unless you count the soundtrack to Casino Royale.... |
why have there suddenly been no new posts Instead of talking about jazz (music), I prefer to dance to architecture. |
*****Speaking of jazz, Rok and Frogman, why have there suddenly been no new posts on that thread?*****
I have been busy entering music into my database and trying to find room for CDs in my racks. It's been a while, and they were backing up. Also catching up on my listening. As our OP once said, listening to Jazz is a lot more enjoyable than talking about it. He was right.
The other "aficionados" are probably somewhere pouting and sulking and walking around with their mouths stuck out.
My most recent purchases:
'The Great Jazz Piano of Phineas Newborn Jr'
'The Best of Max Roach and Clifford Brown'
'Clifford Brown and Max Roach: Vme Series'
To what have you been listening?
Cheers |
Lee Morgan is a great trumpet player! Another one that died young, if I remember right. |
You may find this interesting. One of the icons of the saxophone world plays and talks to young musicians about being a jazz player, the music, the study; and gives insights into his personal life including being married to Charlie Parker's widow. I think Rok will find some of his comments particularly interesting. And what a great player! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJxmCzYpoo |
Just in case my very short comment's meaning wasn't clear, just wanted to congratulate you for being able to identify Morgan. Which relates to some of my earlier comments re players' clear and identifiable personalities; some have it, some don't. Morgan had a certain swagger in his playing that was unique. Regards. |
****"That sounds like Lee Morgan", now back to that singing sax which brings out this tune as well as any vocalist"****
****I discovered this was "Star Eyes" off my Mosaic LP compilation, Mosaic MR4-106, The Complete Blue Note Recordings of The Tina Brooks Quintets; Lee Morgan, trumpet; ****
Hah! |
Learsfool, how true, and I know that scenario well. More and more I show up to a freelance job where, first of all, I look around and ask myself "who are all these people?" (young!!; or perhaps more accurately: I'm getting old!!). There are are so many truly fantastic young players fresh out of conservatory who can play anything with accuracy, great pitch, and even good understanding of the repertoire; but, somehow, they tend to sound more alike than not, and don't have the experience to get them out of a musical "jam". As Rok so astutely said once "music is not about perfection". Unfortunately, given the current state of the BUSINESS of music these young players have to start from a place of perceived "perfection" to stand a chance of getting to the point later in their careers where they can express more individuality. |
Frogman, who would believe two guitars could make so much music. To be honest, I can't tell whether or not Paco or John is playing when I'm listening to CD or LP. I have this LP with Paco, John, and Al Di Meola, and I try to determine who is playing; but since I can't, in the end I give up and just enjoy the incredible music these three masters of the guitar can create. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaCZ106b5wEnjoy the music. |
O-10, that John McLaughlin/L Shankar clip was fantastic; I loved it. Talk about two players being locked into each other musically; and clearly enjoying it. Thanks for sharing. This is McLaughlin with another favorite guitarist Paco De Lucia: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls5Zmf4sCmo |
Very nice post, Frogman! I see exactly where you are coming from now, and would agree. We are indeed drawing slightly different lines, and what you said about "clear and unique" stylistic voice makes more sense than anything else I have heard about why some don't dig him as much. He definitely has a more homogenous sound, as do more and more brass players nowadays, in the classical world as well. Regional differences in sound, even on my instrument, are becoming less and less, which is really kind of sad. Everyone is sounding more and more the same. It's a great sound, but there is much less variety. This issue has affected my own career negatively.
For those of you who are not musicians reading the above, a brief explanation in layman's terms - I used to sub regularly with one of the very finest orchestras in the country, when my former teacher was the principal. Well, when he took a sabbatical near the end of his career, suddenly the calls for me stopped. The younger guys in the section preferred to use a guy who was not as experienced as me, and who they had to correct more ensemble-type problems with than they did with me, simply because they preferred the horn he played on to mine (he sounded exactly like they did, whereas I had a slightly different sound, even though I was able to blend perfectly well). While the calls started again, once my former teacher came back, I saw the writing on the wall for working there once my teacher retired, but luckily I got the job I have now anyway, so it didn't matter in the end. I have also had the satisfaction of hearing my former teacher publicly criticize his former colleagues for how they operate now in their close minded fashion since his retirement. I'm not going to say anymore about who and where or anything like that - I like to maintain relative anonymity here to feel free to make comments I would otherwise be uncomfortable making. |
