A) You've got the wrong speakers. Maggies WILL NOT play "loud" if we are speaking the same language. By the way, SPL's should be measured at the seated listening position on an average basis.
B) You don't have a suitable amp(s) for your situation, nor do i think it is possible to obtain one. If you do, you will blow your speakers to smithereens.
You need high rail voltages and high current capacity. Solid state Mac amps are big SS boat anchors that try to emulate tube sound. That is great if you are more concerned with a specific sound than with obtaining high levels of accuracy and the best in electrical performance. Mac's do this by throwing away the technical superiority of their SS heritage and high current potential by introducing the non-linear distortions of an output transformer into the system. An output transformer is equivalent to raising the output impedance of an ss design ( soggy, less controlled bass ) and running a VERY long run of small gauge speaker wire ( higher series resistance, placing a veil on the entire audible spectrum ). In my opinion, such a design is not suitable for use when trying to obtain either accuracy or musicality in a system. Running an output transformer with tubes is another story ( although it sounds better without them ) due to being a bird of a different feather.
C) You are sitting WAY too far back from these speakers. For most speakers to produce "wide" soundstages, you need to sit appr 2' - 3' in from how far you have them spread apart. That is, if you have them spaced 12' apart, you'll probably have to sit somewhere between 11' - 9' from their center. Obviously, this will vary with the amount of toe in used.
D) Your speaker placement and listening positions are all wrong. Look at all of the commonly divisible numbers in the equation here. I will pretty much guarantee that you are creating a lot of your own problems here. Here's what you posted:
"I have the speakers on the long wall, but cannot place them centrally on the wall. They are 12' apart (centre to centre) with approximately 9' to the side wall from the right speaker and 27' to the left side wall. They are 6.2 feet from the front wall (based on the Cardas rule of ceiling height times 0.618) 18 feet from the listening chair with 3 feet behind the chair to a very reflective rear wall."
3' from the rear wall
6' from the front wall
9' to one side wall
12' apart
18' from the listening chair
27' to the other side wall
E) The first thing that you need to do is to get the tonal balance right. Music without bass will always sound "weak & anemic". This is true even if the mid-band spl's are the same or slightly higher than if you actually had some bottom end "grunt". Once you obtain a more balanced frequency response, THEN worry about the volume requirements. The reason that i say this is that once you get some bass into the picture, your perspective on volume will change a little bit.
F) These speakers will never deliver "slam" or great bass impact. Their bass will be tight and well controlled, but you'll never get "thump" out of them. Due to the surface area, they will produce quite reasonable bass when properly set up.
G) John Dunlavy is a very smart man and i have oodles of respect for him. Having said that, many people misinterpret what he said. What he did say is that various wires will measure differently and that they could affect performance but that most people can't detect the differences that they could contribute under controlled conditions.
All i will add to that is:
1) their "controlled conditions" may not have been ideally optimized for the tests being performed
2) the candidates selected for such tests did not have the proper listening skills. As i've stated before, most people here but don't know how to listen.
3) the cables being used were all of similar electrical characteristics and / or not different enough to warrant audible differences under the specific test installation conditions
H) I can provide a means to obtain better, "more optimum" speaker placement for any given room, but it seems as if all of the previous comments have gone unheeded. Most speaker placement formulas fail in rooms that are not relativey square or rectangular in shape. Even then, they don't work all that great due to the various surfaces, points of reflection and room furnishings involved. If you are truly interested in working to minimize your problems, please let us know.
I) Given that most of us have contributed very similar answers and you've gotten the same results with everything that you've tried by ignoring those comments, the general consensus is that the system is trying to tell you something, we are trying to tell you something, but you aren't listening. I don't think that any of us have a problem with multiple posts about the same problem so long as we aren't talking to a brick wall.
Good sound reproduction is a science. You can stumble across good sound by trying a million different things or you can apply logic to the situation and speed the process up drastically. Sean
>
B) You don't have a suitable amp(s) for your situation, nor do i think it is possible to obtain one. If you do, you will blow your speakers to smithereens.
You need high rail voltages and high current capacity. Solid state Mac amps are big SS boat anchors that try to emulate tube sound. That is great if you are more concerned with a specific sound than with obtaining high levels of accuracy and the best in electrical performance. Mac's do this by throwing away the technical superiority of their SS heritage and high current potential by introducing the non-linear distortions of an output transformer into the system. An output transformer is equivalent to raising the output impedance of an ss design ( soggy, less controlled bass ) and running a VERY long run of small gauge speaker wire ( higher series resistance, placing a veil on the entire audible spectrum ). In my opinion, such a design is not suitable for use when trying to obtain either accuracy or musicality in a system. Running an output transformer with tubes is another story ( although it sounds better without them ) due to being a bird of a different feather.
C) You are sitting WAY too far back from these speakers. For most speakers to produce "wide" soundstages, you need to sit appr 2' - 3' in from how far you have them spread apart. That is, if you have them spaced 12' apart, you'll probably have to sit somewhere between 11' - 9' from their center. Obviously, this will vary with the amount of toe in used.
D) Your speaker placement and listening positions are all wrong. Look at all of the commonly divisible numbers in the equation here. I will pretty much guarantee that you are creating a lot of your own problems here. Here's what you posted:
"I have the speakers on the long wall, but cannot place them centrally on the wall. They are 12' apart (centre to centre) with approximately 9' to the side wall from the right speaker and 27' to the left side wall. They are 6.2 feet from the front wall (based on the Cardas rule of ceiling height times 0.618) 18 feet from the listening chair with 3 feet behind the chair to a very reflective rear wall."
3' from the rear wall
6' from the front wall
9' to one side wall
12' apart
18' from the listening chair
27' to the other side wall
E) The first thing that you need to do is to get the tonal balance right. Music without bass will always sound "weak & anemic". This is true even if the mid-band spl's are the same or slightly higher than if you actually had some bottom end "grunt". Once you obtain a more balanced frequency response, THEN worry about the volume requirements. The reason that i say this is that once you get some bass into the picture, your perspective on volume will change a little bit.
F) These speakers will never deliver "slam" or great bass impact. Their bass will be tight and well controlled, but you'll never get "thump" out of them. Due to the surface area, they will produce quite reasonable bass when properly set up.
G) John Dunlavy is a very smart man and i have oodles of respect for him. Having said that, many people misinterpret what he said. What he did say is that various wires will measure differently and that they could affect performance but that most people can't detect the differences that they could contribute under controlled conditions.
All i will add to that is:
1) their "controlled conditions" may not have been ideally optimized for the tests being performed
2) the candidates selected for such tests did not have the proper listening skills. As i've stated before, most people here but don't know how to listen.
3) the cables being used were all of similar electrical characteristics and / or not different enough to warrant audible differences under the specific test installation conditions
H) I can provide a means to obtain better, "more optimum" speaker placement for any given room, but it seems as if all of the previous comments have gone unheeded. Most speaker placement formulas fail in rooms that are not relativey square or rectangular in shape. Even then, they don't work all that great due to the various surfaces, points of reflection and room furnishings involved. If you are truly interested in working to minimize your problems, please let us know.
I) Given that most of us have contributed very similar answers and you've gotten the same results with everything that you've tried by ignoring those comments, the general consensus is that the system is trying to tell you something, we are trying to tell you something, but you aren't listening. I don't think that any of us have a problem with multiple posts about the same problem so long as we aren't talking to a brick wall.
Good sound reproduction is a science. You can stumble across good sound by trying a million different things or you can apply logic to the situation and speed the process up drastically. Sean
>