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Maybe being discerning isn't that good for us?

A topic I touch on now and then, I think about what the average person hears, what I hear, and what it means to be discerning. What good is it for us, our community, and the industry?

I’ll touch on a couple of clear examples. I was at a mass DAC shoot out and spoke with one of the few ladies there. To paraphrase her, she said this:

Only with DACs made in the the last few years can I listen to digital music without getting a headache.

I never had that problem, but we both experienced a significant improvement in sound quality at about the same time. Lets take her statement as 100% true for this argument.

On the other hand, I am completely insensitive to absolute phase issues which some claim to be. I’m also VERY sensitive to room acoustics, which many fellow audiophiles can completely ignore.

Lets assume the following:

  • The lady really did get headaches due to some issue with older DACs
  • There really are people very sensitive to absolute phase.

I’ve also found the concept of machine learning, and neural networks in particular truly fascinating. In areas of medical imaging, in specific areas such as breast cancer detection, neural networks can be more accurate than trained pathologists. In the case of detecting early cancer, discernment has an obvious advantage: More accuracy equals fewer unnecessary procedures, and longer lives, with less cost. Outstanding!!

Now what if, like the trained neural networks, I could teach myself to be sensitive to absolute phase? This is really an analog for a lot of other things like room acoustics, cables, capacitors, frequency response, etc, but lets stick to this.

Am I better off? Did I not in fact just go down a rabbit hole which will cause me more grief and suffering? Was I not better before I could tell positive vs. negative recording polarity?

How do you, fellow a’gonner stop yourself, or choose which rabbit holes to go through? Ever wonder if you went down one too many and have to step back?
erik_squires
geof3
1,129 posts
 
Early stereo recordings did all sorts of crazy things with panning. Some of it had to do with the analog medium itself, tracking etc. Some of it had to do with simply the recordings themselves, as often they were live, all in the same room. In those early days room isolation didn’t exist, so in order to have music not be a complete mess, they would pan relative to position and mic bleed. Often they would put the dry vocal track panned full to one side and the effects panned full to the other, Zepp and the Beatles did this often.

And I would agree, most of us take this whole thing way to seriously. I think to some degree, the sheer amount of $$$ spent in this hobby forces a need to be overly discerning to justify the out lay. It’s very easy to get too wrapped up in all the crap and not just simply enjoy the music for what it is, how ever it was meant to be heard. The other thing I think we get WAY to wrapped up in, is trying to make recorded music sound “live”. That’s just a pipe dream, unfortunately. Systems can sound absolutely fantastic, but they are ALWAYS at the mercy of how the music was recorded, and how it was manipulated. So yeah, we get way to hung up on all this stuff... but really, isn’t that true for anything we are passionate about?
jtcf's avatar
jtcf
1,620 posts
 
It is irritating sometimes.There's a few albums where sometimes the instrument playing on the right side is suddenly switched over to the left in mid song for no reason.Just when you can picture where each musician is standing it's like he/she popped over to the other side of the stage.I don't (usually) mind so much if a recording is sub par.It's almost like hearing the band or artist in an acoustically bad venue.It's still enjoyable.If I had a crappy system that made everything sound like that I would definitely have a headache.
I had an old car in which one of the speakers would cut out from time to time.Those old Beatles songs were interesting to hear just the vocals or just the instruments.The guitars were playing simple country style rhythms.
asvjerry's avatar
asvjerry
4,706 posts
 
@mapman , I'll back you up on your comments overall, But therein lies the rub....sometimes the wrong way....*G*

As the Walsh nut case I am....yes, they do present a fantastic level of imaging in an effortless fashion....sometimes to the determent of the recordings.  Some have the mark of an engineer that knew what to do and how.....the lead There, the drum kit over to the right and back, the vocalist just left of center.....
Then there's the recordings that are as flat as a pancake; everything in the middle, with only minor attempts at 'spread'.  True, typical for older stuff, but even on remasters there's only so much digital magic can render....
As for phase, the way in which I've constructed my 'mutants' (or, as one person noted, my 'steampunk speakers')....(a comment that I actually like, btw...), physical acoustic phase is a piece of cake.
The 'driving' phase, positive vs. negative and the reverse of same can extract or diminish 'details' that I've noted between the mid-woofer and the tweeter,  I can only relate this to the physical difference in their size at this time...
And the subwoofer which deals with the lower frequencies can reverse it's phase with the flip of a switch, so it adds to the fun....*L*

When I'm in a situation where I can get set up in a more 'normal' space I hope to quantify what I can only notice at  this point....
Future fun.....part of the delights of this pursuit...*G*

I come from a 'relatively normal' family, where I felt secure and loved.  Not that I didn't induce stress due to my own attitudes and idiocy, but we all grow up in varied ways....;)

Room treatment?  DAC will have to do for now....

One could say I'm going through a phase....*L*

Enjoy yours,
J
akgwhiz
187 posts
 
Interesting thread for sure and as someone new to the forum world but a long time listener, I've never "thought about" absolute phase.   My first blush is that it's not possible to hear but well, apparently it is (to some).  As others have noted, perhaps if one heard a demo of it, then they just might hear it.  There's probably much out there on the topic but to prevent me from reading the chaff, maybe someone could recommend some legit articles on the matter.  Maybe they will help me do a demonstration or test.

Or maybe I dont want to know if it's possible for me to hear the difference. 
gregm
3,407 posts
 
Hi   @erik_squires
On the other hand, I am completely insensitive to absolute phase issues which some claim to be.
It's possible you do perceive them—you just don't bother about them...The soundstage seems scattered left & right & some things sound as if they're back to front.

As to the lady's point on contemporary DACs: couldn't agree more!

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