And he still doesn't add remote control. I have an SA-9 BTW that had a few upgrades by Michael.
MODIFIED COUNTERPOINT -comments?????
I have put up a question about Counterpoint in the past.I was interested in 5000 model pre for it's front mounted phono controls.Plus have read a number of Hifi engineers that audio is best dealt with in hybrid format in that for tonal reporduction tubes do best job in changing voltage and it's sound while solid state does best job with power output giving better control etc..
Now I know in the day that Counterpoint was around thier products were "moderately priced" (a relative term at any point in time)priced while their signature pre-amp (the SA11) an all tube line stage was $7500 and the famous model 9 phono section was $4K.But when I look at the prices to upgrade the components my jaw just dropped out out.IT ws in the neighborhood of $10K.Now i know Mchael Elliot is a talented designer but when I compare the same description of upgrades by techs who put up ther prices here on Audiogon I wonder could the results be worth it?Again with many of the products not being cheap in the first place you have to wonder why the amps and pre's need the upgrades ,design features defeated and prices what I expect to hear quoted from a cardiac surgeon! And audio products that might have been orignianlly costly,with all the potetial upgrades to put the price of the SA500 into Nagra,Futterman,or Wavac territory.
I understand Mr.Elliot had high overhead and a marketing dept etc but how should one feel about the need for almost total revamping of the piece.He explains in his lit that back then some of the items delivered were EXTREMELY expensive.But now the testimonials reccomend you rip 'em out and put in even more expensive produts (many which I have to belive being analogue were availible then) and drop a cool $10K or something close to upgrade an pre that went for a third of these prices of said upgrades.I believe Mr.Elliot quotes a reasonable if not cheap hour labor quote of $45 and hour (I think).But the question is is can it be worth it verus what can be bought today?I admire confidence and when looking at Alta Vista and it's two tube amps he speaks about building a companion pre-amp which since he is as he stated "The best phono section engineer out there" and the new one incorporated will be better than the SA-9 "which has here to for considered the finest ever built" (though I think this might be fighting words to some Aesthitix IO owners).Again no lack of stated confidence.The pre project has had a multi year update with a few snags that have prevented it's introduction with a price tage of $12K but since his products are sold directly you will purchasing a product that through normal chains of marketing and sales you are paying half of what you would in a shop he states (though the sense of that gien the fewer units sold kind of skews that argument.I digress.I mention the Alta Vista products merely to put the upgrade route I was interested in to more prespective.I still think of finding a Counterpoint 5000 but have to ask m,yself "can this be worth it".Hope to hear from some of those who have gone the route I sometimes consider and would also like to hear from those who have simply heard the units (amps and pre's) ands think that stock prurchase and the expensive upgrades mentioned are worth it.I am not a cheapskate but don't consider myself spendthrift either.Anyone have any input after this lengthy screed ( as I apologize many of posts are- brevity not being my strong suit)
Cheers
Chazz
Now I know in the day that Counterpoint was around thier products were "moderately priced" (a relative term at any point in time)priced while their signature pre-amp (the SA11) an all tube line stage was $7500 and the famous model 9 phono section was $4K.But when I look at the prices to upgrade the components my jaw just dropped out out.IT ws in the neighborhood of $10K.Now i know Mchael Elliot is a talented designer but when I compare the same description of upgrades by techs who put up ther prices here on Audiogon I wonder could the results be worth it?Again with many of the products not being cheap in the first place you have to wonder why the amps and pre's need the upgrades ,design features defeated and prices what I expect to hear quoted from a cardiac surgeon! And audio products that might have been orignianlly costly,with all the potetial upgrades to put the price of the SA500 into Nagra,Futterman,or Wavac territory.
I understand Mr.Elliot had high overhead and a marketing dept etc but how should one feel about the need for almost total revamping of the piece.He explains in his lit that back then some of the items delivered were EXTREMELY expensive.But now the testimonials reccomend you rip 'em out and put in even more expensive produts (many which I have to belive being analogue were availible then) and drop a cool $10K or something close to upgrade an pre that went for a third of these prices of said upgrades.I believe Mr.Elliot quotes a reasonable if not cheap hour labor quote of $45 and hour (I think).But the question is is can it be worth it verus what can be bought today?I admire confidence and when looking at Alta Vista and it's two tube amps he speaks about building a companion pre-amp which since he is as he stated "The best phono section engineer out there" and the new one incorporated will be better than the SA-9 "which has here to for considered the finest ever built" (though I think this might be fighting words to some Aesthitix IO owners).Again no lack of stated confidence.The pre project has had a multi year update with a few snags that have prevented it's introduction with a price tage of $12K but since his products are sold directly you will purchasing a product that through normal chains of marketing and sales you are paying half of what you would in a shop he states (though the sense of that gien the fewer units sold kind of skews that argument.I digress.I mention the Alta Vista products merely to put the upgrade route I was interested in to more prespective.I still think of finding a Counterpoint 5000 but have to ask m,yself "can this be worth it".Hope to hear from some of those who have gone the route I sometimes consider and would also like to hear from those who have simply heard the units (amps and pre's) ands think that stock prurchase and the expensive upgrades mentioned are worth it.I am not a cheapskate but don't consider myself spendthrift either.Anyone have any input after this lengthy screed ( as I apologize many of posts are- brevity not being my strong suit)
Cheers
Chazz
6 responses Add your response
I have a fully Alta Vista Audio modified SA5000 (well... two actually). I can't say what a bargain is in this hobby, but I can say that the first SA5000 that I had modified by Mike was a revelation in my system. I had previously owned, auditioned, or listened to many preamps that were in the same price range as the modifications I had done. None of them were able to make my system sound inviting, exciting, and alive like the modded SA5000 did. I had purchased a second all-stock SA5000 for use in my second system. After spending some time with the modified unit, I become so taken by it's sound that I sent my other one to Mike for mods. Expensive, yes, but after I heard what the first one could do, I just had to add that same quality to my other system. The best service that Mike provides, in my opinion, is the ability to customize to the customer's needs. Within reason, you can have anything you can imagine done. I ended up doing some non-standard stuff to my phono stages and power supplies that I feel payed huge dividends in the sound of my vinyl. I recently took one of these to a friends house who has an amazing system and a couple of very capable high-end preamps. The sound of the Counterpoint's phono section simply couldn't be compared to the other units. An A/B comparison was absolutely pointless. As soon as the needle hit the vinyl the Counterpoint stayed on for the rest of the day. In fact, I ended up leaving it there while I had some work done on my second system. Needless to say, the Counterpoint is still the preferred preamp in that system. The owner later told me that he and several visitors clearly preferred the sound of the Counterpoint's line stage to his long term reference preamp. Remember when you get a component modified that your money is all going towards components and not towards the chassis, knobs, etc. When you look at the total cost of a new product, it makes sense that a good chunk of that cost has to go into the sheet metal. Good luck with your decision. if you'd like, email me for details. I am always happy to talk audio! |
In deed the Counterpoint phono section is nice. However, spending a huge amount of money with lack of resale value is questionable. The question to yourself would be "Is this the last pice of gear I'll ever use?" Most of us would say "No!" but it is still your choice and preference. Once the upgrade is done, is the sound what you're looking for? I don't think no one really know the answer until you listen to it for yourself. I too owned SA-5000 and loved it. I too modified it and loved it. I too sold it and move on to something else. I too modified my preamp replacement and loved it. So, what's next? |
If someone already has a 5000, then putting another $1k here could very well be a good sonic product. But forget about recouping your money anytime soon. Finding really good full-function preamps these days is tough in the under $5k range so the 5000 is a keeper. The SA11 and SA9 are in many ways collectors items as nothing else in their time was even close to their performance. But it makes no sense today to put $10k into these considering Michael Elliot has the upcoming WV preamp that supposedly will surpass the SA11/SA9 pair. For what the unmodified SA11/SA9 pair is going for here when they are available, the upcoming Aria WV is not that much more. Check out Aria for further details on the preamp. John |
I do have another comment about resale value. I had an SA5000 that I bought here on Audiogon which already had the Alta Vista Audio mods done to the linestage and power supply. I decided to sell it so I could get the mods done my way on a different SA5000. The unit I had, which had a total of about $2700 in modifications done to it, ended up selling for $3600 here on Audiogon. When you consider that stock SA5000s go used for $1600 on average, I ended up getting back $2000 of the $2700 mods in resale value. That really isn't bad resale value in the used audio world. In fact it is quite good! |