Many of the folks here, I myself included, and as well, as folks on other forums, we have perhaps tried this, or that, or maybe a few different cleaning products, rinsing products, and/or different techniques as well.
It would probably be a rare instance indeed, where a number of member can come forward, and say they have tried every single product on the market, past, and present, to make fair, and accurate analysis/judgement of what products superceed/best others. And what others fall short, and how they fall short.
And I would probably be 100% correct that even in this hypothetical scenario, that there was a sufficient number of prople who have, how many then have used accurate methods "laboratory methods of such testing?
Answer most likely is zero.
Basically all of us end users have to go by, is what our ears, and eyes tell us. Although the human eye, and ear can reveal a lot, none of most likely have electron microscopes in our arsenal, or any other type of lab measuring equipment.
We go by what others say, go by what manufacturers tell us, or profess thier products do, and I'm not going to profess to snake oil products, because none of the very well known products available on the market (Mo Fi, VPI L'Art Du Son, Nitty Gritty, LAST, Disc Doctor, AIVS, Walker, Premier, Phoenix, and others) can be called "snake oil".
It might more actually come down to a "lure", and who might possibly have the best BS story-advertisment yarn to tell? Sort of like Car Manufacturers with thier slogans, and little jingles, thus trying to suck you into a purchase.
Part of the problem I see with many of the cleaners available, is the end user has absolutely no idea what they contain, the purity of thier contents, the actual effectiveness, and safe vinyl use they purport.
Of course we certainly cannot expect companies to give away proprietary formulas. But still, it would be nice at least knowing the basic contents.
I guess the bottom line is, always has, and always perhaps will be, is to use what you like, and what you like paying for. What works for Joe, Jim, and Mike, might not be best suited for somebody else.
This also holds true with any rinsing agents- purified waters.
Without provided Lab Analysis of gases, solids, methods of purification, we are only again "guessing" that Reagent Grade is as good as this, or Mo-Fi Pure is better than that, etc.
I of course like the products I currently use, which is AIVS, but no matter what brands I use, I myself cannot accurately, or truthfully make claims that such a product is better, or worse than another which I have not tried. Mark |
Sure, scrubbing could pose a danger, akin to if you were glazing-waxing your car, and there is trapped grit-dirt between wax applicator, and paint, you will scratch the surface-finish.
To lessen this, I suggest pre-cleaning-dusting with at least a Carbon Fiber Brush, specifically used for this purpose, before placing an LP on an RCM. This will also place less wear and tear on your RCM's Wand Protective Strips, and Scrubbing Brushes.
I certainly cannot speak for everybody out there who cleans thier records, but I'd probaby be correct saying that even the folks who are using the very best state of the art RCM's made, such as Loricraft, Monks, Hannl, etc., and are using whatever cleaners, whether a one step, or a multi-step such as Walker, AIVS, Mo-Fi are resorting to scrubbing with seperate, dedicated brushes for each particular cleaning step-rinse.
For each step, apply first with Brush-Brush Pad, let those products sit, to first do thier job for a number of minutes, attacking-working on the contaminants.
Only then begin your scrub routine, use a technique following the grooves, in a forward-reverse motion, scrubbing both ways, cleaning a 1/4th to a 1/3rd of the record at a time, and then move onto the next section of record, insuring overlap. Use the best quality Brushes-Brush Pads you can afford. After scrubbing is completed, then vacuum off fluids, and continue to the next step. There is nothing that says a specific step cannot be repeated, and it may be wise to do so with horribly dirty records. Same applies with the pure Water Rinse.
It is always important that you NEVER let any cleaner-rinse dry on the surface! An example is washing-spraying your car with tap water, let the water dry, then look at your paint finish, and the resulting water spots which are then very difficult to remove.
I think most here will generaly agree with what I have written, and I hope this helps you achieve better results. Mark
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There's others here who certainly have greater knowledge than I, I still feel I'm a relative "greehorn", but I constantly strive to learn more, and more, and bu participating in forums like this one, I feel I have come a long way from as little as the past year, even though I've been spinning vinyl for around 36 years.
With that being said, I do get an impression that many products on the market are sort of "incomplete". As Mo-Fi has now come with this Enzyme Cleaner, I feel "well then, what's the next step after this?" Just a pure rinse, nothing else in between these two steps?
I gather the MFSL Super Deep Cleaner is still marketed.
Then, should that be used after? I believe some do, but reading many other's posts with what they use, and with what order that they use them in, it really has begun to sound like a veritable hodge podge combination of different assorted products, which there's no set in stone regimem-rules?
This is where it can get real confusing! (Ah, the ole "Who's on First, and What's on Second!") lol
And then there's the Steam?
I've concluded (at least for now at the present time) that there should be some order in which specific steps should be used.
I believe two companies like Walker, and AIVS had/have recognized, and concluded this importance of specific, orderly steps, with highly specialized products to achieve the very best results.
I do get a strong impression, that these two singular products in themselves are perhaps not adequate to achive the desired results you wish to achieve, and your final results seem to suggest this.
Others will no doubt chime in with very good advice, but my advice is, I do suggest you perhaps try either AIVS, or Walker products.
I would also like mentioning the obvious, that the cleaners do need time to do what they are designed to do, but I'm sure you probably already know this. Mark |
Sonofjim, From my understanding, this is incorrect, that Walker is the only company selling an Enzyme product of any merit, or effectiveness. With that being said, one doesn't have to mix up a fresh batch, just to get active Enzymes.
Asd I understand it, time is not the enemy-detriment of Enzymes, but rather heat. Mark |
Thank you very much for the compliment Sonofjim, that my comments-thoughts are favorably regarded. I know at times, we can all feel a bit like the ole "Rodney Dangerfield"
Much of what I've learned, is an accumilation from mostly many of the folks here, rolled into one ball. I'm only trying to donate, and give back, perhaps in thier temporary absence.
My friend Doug Deacon has been a very helpful person to me. He's saved me lots of runaround, wasted money, and has helped me to learn to squeeze much more than I thought I ever would from my system, particularly my analog set up. Up course many others have as well have unknowingly contributed-helped me, so please forgive me for not including your names also.
I'm fortunate to say, that I've listened, and I've read, and tried soaking in all of thier very good advice, knowledge, and experiences.
The VPI 16.5 RCM I bought about 16-17 months ago was a very wise expenditure as well. Yes I know there are better RCM's made, but doubtful there's a better one for the money.
A good RCM, high quality cleaning products, and a fanatical care for our vinyl all go hand in hand.
The combination of this, the knowledgable advice, a wonderful Cartridge I bought new (ZYX Airy 3X SB). and other improvements-upgrades-set up tools to my analog front end have produced vastly improved sonics that didn't exist in my system just a couple of short years ago. Mark |
Tbg,
Perhaps I should re-iterate-re-explain, as I don't believe I concluded that cheaper products, or saying as well, to say that one step versus multi-step is better, or preferred.
These cleaning discussions-battles have been going on for years, and there are as many camps of thought, as there are posters. There are many who believe-conclude that DIY is every bit as good as any commercial cleaner made on the planet, and some may even go as far to say that the big players in the market are selling hype, peddling lies, and snake oil.
This is where I stand my ground firmly, and totally disagree, that the best products in the market will be the best that can be used, and provide the very best final results period, no ifs, ands, or buts.
Many people of course have thier apprehensions-disbeliefs that more costly products are a waste of money, and that the time-expense of thorough scientific research, and the money spent on the very highest quality components-ingredients of a Cleaning System are either not needed, or are hype to get folks to open-empty thier wallets.
As Chashmal concluded, or perhaps for a better word "questioned" earlier in this thread, that something was perhaps missing as a step in between the Mo-Fi Enzyme, and Pure Water Rinse? He might be correct, I have no personal knowledge of what exactly are the ingredients of Mo-Fi Enzyme Cleaner.
It does appear to me at the present, that companies such as AIVS, and Walker have concluded that a multi step process gives the very best results, and I conclude, as well as many others here, that both companies have poured much thought, research, expense to insure thier products are of the very highest quality.
Others have claimed-noted the advantages-improvements of Steam, and I personally (for what it is worth) am not prepared, nor inclined to go to such processes, even though folks such as Mapleshade have touted its effectiveness. I personally prefer to keep heat away from the grooves, in that the detriment of heat near-on PVC could possibly outweigh the benefits.
Mark |
