My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Yes, don't be shy. Kindly give your analysis and preferences here, chazzzy007, thezaks, grey9hound, ricevs, mrdecibel, rh67, speedbump6, 4425. derekw_hawaii, logydoghan, psnyder149, kren0006, cascadesphil, tweak1, yyzsantabarbara, viber7--continue to elaborate on your previous comments. Thanks to all for their impressions. Thanks to Jay for his work and upcoming analysis. We have all learned a lot. |
Round 3, like round 1 may have a difference in speaker cables--Transparent for Class A amp, Straight Wire for Rouge. This may handicap the Rouge, Jay should clarify this in his comments on his final assessment. Still, I again prefer presentation #1 to #2 for #1's better clarity on the voice and sax. Voice at 0:30 for #1, at 5:50 for #2. Sax at 4:40 for #1, at 10:00 for #2. #1 shows more focus and upfront quality on voice, with clearer enunciation of syllables, as a test for HF resolution. Sibilants on syllables are an important component of the complete tonality of the voice, and it is unfortunate than many audiophiles are so allergic to sibilants that they end up with smoothed, duller sound. The sax is also more focused and upfront on #1. More HF content thins the sax a little on #1. On #2 there is an overall more laid back impression of both voice and sax. The voice and sax are both fatter on #2. These are still small differences, although I think the 725 helps to show the differences better. With the more resolved and transparent 725, the differences between #1 and #2 are greater. My vote is #1 on all 3 rounds. |
Post your thoughts and vote on the final demo video https://youtu.be/oYtp3f5lw5Q This 3rd demo nails the differences between both amps... I don’t know if it was the addition of the 725 preamp, the song i selected or me not using the Synergistic Research Powercell to plug the preamp into. Ok guys - Jay is going to relax and let you all give me your impressions on this last video. Let me hear it! |
Ok guys Here’s the final demo which includes the Soulution 725 preamp. It’s been hard to do this but fun at the same time. My raw thoughts to come later this week. https://youtu.be/oYtp3f5lw5Q |
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cascadesphil, This is a happy outcome for you and us. You can give us a second opinion about the relative merits of the EVS1200 (IceEdge) and the modded Voyager (GaN) in your system and with your ears and music. After that, it would be great to drive to Jay and compare the Voyager to Jay's reference amps, both the Constellation and the mystery amp. If it is too cumbersome for Jay to do another shootout video, at least a discussion between you and Jay would be most informative for us. Maybe Jay can do a YT video of that discussion, which will attract attention. |
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I owned Ric’s EVS 1200 and liked it better in my system than the Coda #8. Seems @yyzsantabarbara preferred or liked the Coda as much as the Voyager. Then Tweak1 keeps saying the Voyager kills the EVS1200. Ha! I love it. This proves once again that this is all subjective and based on one’s system, system synergy, sonic preferences and even room. Impossible to say one of these wonderful amps is best in all systems and situations." So true. Yyzsantabarbara has the same speakers as I do. That's why I never understand either the heated debates (everyone can like their own flavor) or over obession about measurements (with no listening!) with different speakers, components, cables, rooms, etc. On another forum someone asked if anyone 'heard' (and the key word is heard) the Class D Audio mini GaN amp. I own one (I bought it for HT as the back of my system is a pain to get to. Assuming I like the Voyager all I have to do is shut off my music subs, remove the power cord, removed the balanced cables from the preamp to the Voyager and plug in the RCAs from the receiver (I bought a lighted make-up mirror to see back there - some would argue I can use it for other things). Anyway, wouldn't you know it after I post my review (as requested if anyone 'heard' it) someone points to an ASR 'objective' review that just is measurements vs. manufactureres specs (to me not a review as it tells me nothing about how it sounds vs. whatever else) and in the review it is noted " I had trouble getting the amplifier to go to full power for the right graph. It would shut down at just 0.7 volt input. Strangely, later on it accepted higher levels of input. I think the impulse nature of this measurement was causing it trouble." To me something that doesn't work leans towards pointing to a defect (either originally or in transportation to the person measuring) or an operator error (who knows as the case of the amp as I noted was magnetic and it doesn't have the best connectors in the world). I have no idea why someone who hasn't 'heard' something would opine (perhaps a career in fortune telling would be a wonderful fit). If the question was does the mini GaN amp really put out its rated power it would certainly not be appropriate for me to share my listening impressions as that wouldn't be answering the concern of the original poster. It takes all kinds. |
I owned Ric’s EVS 1200 and liked it better in my system than the Coda #8. Seems @yyzsantabarbara preferred or liked the Coda as much as the Voyager. Then Tweak1 keeps saying the Voyager kills the EVS1200. Ha! I love it. This proves once again that this is all subjective and based on one’s system, system synergy, sonic preferences and even room. Impossible to say one of these wonderful amps is best in all systems and situations. |
Viber - congrats on the Gold Medal (display it proudly) - https://www.target.com/p/gold-medal-all-purpose-flour-2lbs/-/A-13016243?ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=google_pla_df&fndsrc=tgtao&DFA=71700000012732781&CPNG=PLA_Grocery%2BShopping_Local%7CGrocery_Ecomm_Food_Bev&adgroup=SC_Grocery&LID=700000001170770pgs&LNM=PRODUCT_GROUP&network=g&device=c&location=9011840&targetid=pla-383930756778&ds_rl=1246978&ds_rl=1248099&gclid=CjwKCAjwkvWKBhB4EiwA-GHjFrTF5hBe6EClMKzBo-xgwYgOMRPd055p9nvkMp_nHWBS1lOkCv_BohoCa04QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds Yes it (the Voyager) is on the way to me. Jay probably isn't horribly far from me (I'd think no more than a few hours). The shoot-outs are work (and I hope everyone appreciates the time taken by Jay - I do). After I spend some time with it breaking in the mods, if schedules can be worked out (Jay's call), it is possible it will happen (have both the EVS 1200 and the Voyager - the EVS 1200 will likely find its way to a secondary system and I'll probably sell a Mivera). |
tweak1, Regarding the foot shuffle on Private Investigation, etc,--on which amp are they more obvious, #1 or #2? Can you locate the timings which show this? After round 1 and 2, what are your objective findings about #1 and #2, and which do you prefer? I expect the ricevs' modded Rouge to be about equal to your EVS1200. Ric used an Italian company for his stock IceEdge before he modded it, and learned about Rouge. So I expect your stock Voyager to be better than my stock Rouge. Yyzsantabarbara finds very significant improvement to the stock Voyager with ricevs' mods. That's why I am presumptively giving the gold medal to Voyager, and I accept the silver medal. |
@petland I think what you’re misinterpreting is that proper class D amps have spooky jet black backgrounds. assuming the rest of the system is highly revealing, you can hear an ant fart deep into the sound stage. Well, not really, but compare the foot shuffle on Dire Straits Private Investigation, or, the clocks on Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon Time, or the mouth pop on Dianna Krall Peel Me a Grape. IME, these are much more obvious, as they should be Now that aside, where I raved on and on anut my EVS 1200 it doesn’t not hold a candle to the stock Voyager. Rics modded version should be even better hth |
Jay, Now that I have established my credibility, why don't you try #16 or 18 zip cord on your speakers, bare wire on the terminals of the XLF and amps? Many people don't like zip because the bass is weak, HF are tizzy compared to any audiophile speaker cable I have tried. Put another way, the audiophile speaker cable is relatively dull and veiled compared to zip. Forget about technical arguments like how zip has low quality materials. Just listen, and hear the positive attributes of zip even if there are flaws. The positive attributes will differentiate the amps even more. Maybe I missed it, but did round 1 use Transparent Opus speaker cables for your mystery amp and Straight Wire speaker cables for the Rouge amp? If so, then the Rouge had a handicap for round 1. A big lesson of this shootout is that there is no perfect amp. Money has little to do with the truth of this statement. The Rouge has flaws, yes. But so does the mystery amp. I wish we could compare the mystery amp to the Soulution 701 monos, perhaps the best amp for clarity and other qualities. We already know that the 725 preamp has more clarity than the mystery preamp used in this A/B. Even the 701 has flaws. Some listeners here and on the YT channel stated that #1 (probably Rouge) has greater clarity and detail even with its flaws. If I am wrong, and #1 is the mystery amp, then this paragraph still applies--they are close, at least on YT. Whatever the distortions of YT, this A/B has been far more difficult than the DAC shootout and most of your past shootouts, all on YT. Whatever the identity of #1 and #2, it is objectively apparent that #1 is brighter and perhaps distorted compared to #2. One knowledgeable musician wrote me privately said #1 is better in most ways. I bet that for exciting recordings such as Metallica and the last minute of Private Investigations with those shocking outbursts, #1 brings more excitement, whereas for romantic soft music, #2 is preferable. Jay, please tell us what you think for different types of music. |
WC, you are the only one who can compare what you hear in the room to what we hear on the YT videos (because you can watch the videos on YT as well). I realize for the success of your channel you have an incentive to pump up YT, or at least to not knock YT, but could you give a candid assessment of to what degree the YT videos track what you actually hear in the room? I haven’t had a chance to listen carefully yet but I will. Two teenagers means life generally a blur right now ..... |
Thank you Paul! It's been a tough shootout for sure. That said, the 2 polls have the second presentation winning on both videos. The question remains, is the class A amp the first or second presentation? Today i plan to shoot the final video using the Soulution 725. I think this will be an interesting video if you ask me because it will allow us to see if maybe with this preamp things are easier to pick apart or maybe they are just as hard. What i did want to say is that the speaker cables certainly are a bottle of neck of some sort. I can't say for sure HOW MUCH they are impacting our findings but with a system this revealing and the fact that we are talking about speaker cables which we all know are perhaps the most important cable in the system, the impact might be larger than we know. I really wish I could have used transparent opus speaker cables but the spades are huge and don't fit the binding posts on the back of the rouge amp. I think that even though they are calibrated for the mystery amp, they would have sounded better on the class d amp than the straight wire speaker cable brand we are using here. |
I couldn’t agree with petland more strongly. I believe that 1 and 2 setups are the same in both videos with 1 being Rouge and 2 being mystery amp. I was listening using Empire Ears Legend X custom molded items through my iMac desktop. This being said, I listened to both full resolution tracks on my real system and the differences laid bare the difficulties that Jay is facing either from his recording setup, the limitations of YouTube, or—most likely—both. All 4 recordings via YouTube sound as if someone had placed a heavy blanket over the speakers for recording. Differences were far more dramatic and detrimental than a high loss, compression .mp3 vs cd. Additionally, the tonality is completely changed. It is a testament of how much care Jay is exercising that the differences between amps are still readily apparent. I believe that some prefer 1’s over 2’s simply because the amps limitations actually give a false sense of detail and the more natural and refined capabilities of both 2’s mask the layers of detail, 3 dimensionality and high quality that are readily apparent when listening to the full resolution tracks directly on a somewhat modest system compared to what Jay is using. I would love to hear the comparison in person. Anyone trying to make purchasing decision based on these YouTube’s is chasing after a fools errand. But the exercise was still meaningful… that the differences are still audible even under these challenging circumstances is a testament of just how important the role the amplifier plays and most importantly how worthy Jays years long quest remains. Keep up the great work, Jay. And keep having fun along the way! I also wish I could afford the fantastic equipment you are able to bring into your “lab”. |
Jay, yyzsantabarbara wrote that he is offering his ricevs' modded Voyager for your evaluation. He notes its clarity with a little warmth. My guess is that you and people here and on your YT channel will love his amp for its winning combination of power, clarity and a little warmth. Apparently your undisclosed amp seems to have these attributes, and I believe his Voyager GaN will be the most worthy challenger to your undisclosed amp. My stock Rouge has made a great showing, but I tip my hat to yyz's efforts and the possibility that his modded Voyager gets the gold medal, and I get silver. |
You are smart for recording all 3 videos with different ancillaries, keeping both amps on the same ancillaries. The 725 should enable easier analysis of the amp differences. Just like Transparent was more revealing than stock + Straight Wire, making round 1 easier than round 2, the 725 should perform in like manner. I guess you can do round 3 with a song you already know has been accepted by YT. Thanks for enduring YT frustrations for us. |
So i uploaded the 3rd demo last night and YouTube sends me an email that the song i had selected was blocked completely and i can’t share the video... Here’s the kicker: i have the Soulution 725 linestage installed in the system so i will have to record the 3rd video with the Soulution 725. So for this 3rd and final video, remember it is a different linestage plugged into a Nordost qb8 instead of the synergistic Research Powercell (i found that to be too hyper detailed with Soulution 725). |
Derek, 5:43 vs 11:55 is for macro dynamic force. 0:48 vs 7:00 is for micro detail. Perhaps most revealing is the spoken male voice right after the delicate guitars. Normally the voice for music should have a little natural warmth, but this recording is designed to be fierce, fitting the tense subject of "private investigations" so I think that just like the closing fierce crashes at 5:43 and 11:55, the spoken voice should not sound romantic, but should be scary and raw. I find #1 best communicates what the engineers and composer intended for this piece. |
Very close comparison on round 2, perhaps more difficult than the already difficult round 1. By a very narrow margin, I again prefer #1 to #2, as I think #1 in round 2 is the same amp as #1 in round 1. At first I decided to concentrate on the loud dynamic part at 5:40 for #1 and 11:55 for #2. Very very close, maybe #1 is more fierce on those scary thunder/lightning-like blasts, the way it should be for these sounds, so #1 is more accurate and detailed, but only by a fraction of a hair. The quiet guitar twangs followed by the voice, "it's a mystery ..." starting at 0:48 for #1 and 7:00 for #2 are more revealing of the differences. #1 shows the guitar slightly more sparkly crisp and with more delicate nuance than #2. The voice is more raw and dry on #1 and warmer on #2. The lesson is that low level detail from quiet music is better at differentiating amps or anything than banging away with loud stuff. With the stock power cords and Straight Wire speaker cables on round 2, I come to the same conclusions as in round 1 with Transparent all the way. Since round 2 was more difficult for me than round 1, I think that the Transparent cables are more revealing of the differences than the stock + Straight Wire cables. Since the amps are so close, I could imagine that if I think #1 is more detailed than #2 with the all Transparent system, then #2 might be more detailed than #1 if #1 is handicapped with stock + Straight Wire, but another shootout would need to be done to confirm this. I would suggest a future shootout could be done with Jay's amps between all Transparent and stock + Straight Wire. Apparently Jay has already done this for himself. He found that within seconds, the Transparent was shown to open up the universe. I defy anyone to reliably say within seconds which amp he prefers. It took me many back and forth trials over the last hour to come to any conclusions, and I am still not totally sure. I could change my mind tomorrow. |
Jay, I wouldn't sell yourself short by saying it's the ONLY reason. But it's true that in the present state of audio, it's a rare event to hear such a match up, except between audio buddies or maybe an audio club.Many amps are sold exclusively on the web so no shootout at your local brick and motar. And I don't think those mega priced amps have a 30 day return policy so you can arrange a private shootout. 🥴 Thanks Jay and Viber6 for the Italian connection. |
I find Presentation 1 superior in Round 1 . Haven’t listened to Round 2 yet. Presentation 1 sounds denser, fuller, more “organic” than 2. I even raised input level 2 clicks on the YouTube video for Presentation 2, as I felt it was recorded at a somewhat lower level than Presentation 1. Same result. Based on what I just typed I would guess Presentation 1 was the Class A mono’s . If it’s not ,no “biggie”, as who knows what’s going on in YouTube as it relates to my end ( inexpensive YAMAHA AVR, playing back thru fairly inexpensive Polk Audio AVR speakers ....I don’t use headphones) Cheers...... |
let’s see how many bite on this last video... Confusing messages are in full display on the last video (if you watched it!) Is presentation 2 really the class a monos or is Jay throwing mixed signals ? this is the beauty of this !!! if you watched the whole video, you could have seen the time in which this video was shot. |
Great discussion. Jay to be honest on YouTube if you do the level matching, Alexia 2 do sounds similar to the XLF. I have played man in the moon in different videos and they sound alike. Maybe it’s better on XLF but then you prob have a better mic there. YouTube can’t give you the sense of scale, tall soundstage, 3D effect and even lower bass on better equipment. I can feel that the 15% differences on YT could be translated to 100% in real live music. Still, is my Essence 10 times better than Rouge? Probably not. But even it is 2 times better, I am still keeping it and will be willing to purchase it again. A nice question for you is what do you think the Rogue amp compares to the McIntosh tube amp or even ARC tube amp. Comparing it to the VACs are meaningless. |
