I wouldn’t sweat it. WC has also asked certain posters on this thread who were trashing his reviews or gear to leave. I didn’t blame him for doing that, those posters were crapping all over the thread.
Not surprising that WC wouldn’t exactly be welcome there given his assessment of those footers if they play a big role with on that site.
Just move on and keep doing what you’re doing. Don’t make it personal or you sink to that level |
So this is what's wrong with hi-end audio when manufacturers can ban people just for having another opinion that's different than theirs. WBF has a bunch of a$$holes and their site doesn't tell the truth or let others give their own honest thoughts. Hope I too get banned from their site! |
As I'm currently looking for new amp (used) your information is great. Not to mention invaluable. Listen loudly in a large shop area, acoustics are great. Rock and Roll in the high 90's spl. Solid 2 channel sytem only. Mostly digital, through a pair of 98.2 efficient Tekton Double impacts, SVS sb4000 sub, Benchmark LA-4 preamp and DAC 3B. Current amp Peachtree AMP -500, Class D. Pass labs 250.5 and Parasound JC 1's are interesting. 532 H Mark Levinson also. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with the NEW Parasound JC5?? Thanks, Robert TN
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Yep i had a feeling mR Joe from critical mass would get his panties in a bunch. I did tell him to his face that these footers were adding artificial sound.
Since Joe is the manufacturer of critical mass, you all can tell him to come here and debate me here if he dares to. I’d be glad to put out my findings in more raw fashion in here.
Nothing will spare him here and on my YouTube channel.
Some manufacturers know better than mess around with influencers.
This is why many are better off staying with their mouths shut and understand that the whole world doesn’t have to like what they produce and they should learn to live with it.
Apple doesn’t lose sleep just because some people prefer Samsung. They don’t come out to argue with the massive amount of influencers on YouTube that criticize the brand. But then again, comparing Apple to Critical Mass is like comparing best buy to radio shack (now gone). |
viber7,
Thanks for commenting, especially since you know classical music, like me. I don’t have experience comparing stereo amps to their strapped mono versions, so accept your findings for now. Same applies to class A vs AB, or having more power reserves.
What is your experience with HF material, like string orchestra, quartets, solo violin? Organ music has a lower freq tonal balance, although some HF content to 9 kHz is present. I have found that cables or electronics which exhibit more depth and spatiality unfortunately tend to have rolled off HF. This is especially true with tube electronics, and you wisely point out that tube amps create contrived euphonic space. I’ll add that this euphonic space is accompanied by larger images, which is really distortion. The actual image of the real instrument is smaller and more focused, and these tube and euphonic SS amps add an overlay of bloating which is distortion. I know the stereo Benchmark AHB2 well from 2 months of audition at home. It has the finest resolution and clarity over the entire freq range. However, its dynamics esp in low freq are compromised. Bass is tight but restrained.
I have struggled with the duality/paradox that AHB2 type amps are detailed but less dynamic, whereas powerful SS amps are less detailed but more dynamic. My Rouge is a happy marriage of detail and dynamics in my system.
I thank Jay for doing a blind A/B so there won’t be any bias for any listener, including you and me. Please comment on your findings and which preference you have. I will just describe what I hear, say which one I prefer, but not venture a guess as to which one is my Rouge. When Jay reveals it later after we all post our findings, that’s when the learning will take place. Heads may roll.
Speaking of live unamplified music, sitting closer shows greater detail but less depth and hall ambience, whereas sitting further back shows less detail but more hall ambience and depth. Some recordings have a close perspective, others the opposite. We don't actually know what the engineers designed, but we can choose electronics that show what we want--either close or more distant. |
As for the stereo Rouge versus the 200w class A monoblock shootout, I will be very interested to hear how this comparison plays out in Jay's room but I already have a pretty good idea.
I have not personally heard the Rouge but I have plenty of experience with some of these so called giant killers that are especially favorites of the fanboys on ASR because they measure well as if high SNR and low THD+noise tell the whole story. This includes the Benchmark AHB2 monoblocks and the new gen class D amps from ICEPower (Bel Canto), NCore (VTV), and Merrill Audio (Element 118) that I have had in my listening room. Some may remember that Merrill lent me a pair of his Element 118s for a few weeks and I posted a review on a different thread here on A'gon some time ago.
As for 200w class A monoblocks, I don't know exactly what Jay has in his room but I have had 2 sets of amps in my listening room that meet these specifications: the Pass Labs XA200.8 (which are long gone) and the Block Audio SE Mono Blocks (which I have now). I have been able to directly compare the Block Audio monoblocks against the AHB2 monoblocks and VTV Ncore NC2000 monoblocks driving my pair of Wilson Alexia Series 2 speakers.
While I can go into much greater detail about the differences among these amps, the 2 biggest differences I hear come down to (1) space and (2) decay. Even with the Block Audio monoblocks set to "Eco" mode which is essentially class AB mode (idle power draw of about 50 watts per monoblock), the Blocks sound much more spacious whereas the AHB2s and NCore sound flatter and more confined. Switch the Block Audios from Eco to Class A mode (idle power draw climbs to about 500 watts per monoblock) and the Blocks sound even more spacious (trust me, I have zero desire to consume 500 watts per monoblock at idle for no good reason and yet this is what I find myself doing). Same thing with decay, with either the AHB2 or the NCore, the decay truncates much more rapidly whereas with the Blocks, you can hear the decay float in the air longer and more realistically. This is especially evident with organ concertos. With either the AHB2 or the NCore (and especially with the NCore NC2000 monoblocks which can output 2,500 watts into 4 ohms), you feel like the organ is expressed forcefully but you also feel as if the concerto is taking place in an anechoic chamber whereas with the Blocks, you get a greater sense of being in a cathedral. Because the presentation of the AHB2 and NCore sound flatter, the layering of detail is less well expressed which is responsible for the perception of less resolution as well as truncated decay. Yes, the AHB2 and NCore sound clean and clear and have good control but they lack the dimensionality of the Blocks (and other amps like the Blocks) that ultimately make the presentation sound less authentic and less engaging. I'm not talking about contrived euphonic space that are introduced by some tube amps (which I don't care for at all) but the real space and depth that you would hear at a live performance venue. When someone tells me their amp sounds like the performers are in the room, my immediate thought is "thanks, but I'll pass. When someone tells me their amp transports the listener to the venue, ok, you've got my attention. To my ears, these are power supply differences and where the less expensive amps seem to be lacking.
I'll conclude this lengthy post with a comment about interconnects and speaker cables. Personally, I did not care for Nordost Odin or WireWorld (thin and bright). I agree with Jay, with Wilson speakers, there's a reason why you'll often find them paired with Transparent cabling at shows as there's clearly good synergy there and in my case, I use calibrated Transparent Reference XL interconnects and speaker cables and have been quite pleased. I have tried the Opus Gen 5 speaker cables and even uncalibrated, I found they are a notable step better then what I have although I found the Tara Labs Grandmaster speaker cables to be better still. The fullness and richness is there just like the Transparent Opus but bass dynamics, control, and resolution were superior with the Tara Labs. With Wilson Audio, I don't think Transparent is the only good fit but it is certainly the safe bet. |
As for the sonic differences between a stereo Benchmark AHB2 and a pair of Benchmark AHB2 monoblocks, here's a youtube video that highlights the differences. It's pretty easy to hear the improvement in sound staging and bass dynamics with the monoblocks in this recording and how the stereo amp sounds more strained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC3OCq_OxMM&t=265sI have never heard a stereo amp that sounds as good or better than the monoblock version of that stereo amp, even at low volumes. It comes down to the power supply compromises that are unavoidable in a stereo application. |
@jays_audio_lab , if you're wondering why you've been banned from WBF, I believe I know the reason why. Basically, you've ticked off one of WBF's big sponsors, Critical Mass. Joe Lavrencik even refers to you as a clown. If you didn't know, Steve Williams, who is one of WBF's owners also happens to be a dealer for Joe's CS2 footers and he has worked very hard to convince everyone on that forum that these footers are the best thing since sliced bread. I suspect you will never be invited onto that forum. https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-center-stage-2m.33340/page-8#post-738504 |
jays_audio_lab
Thank You for citing all Cables/Cords utilized in these different systems (shoot-out).
One question- are you using the SR Power Cell in your Wilson/Transparent Reference System?
The OPUS cabling system is so good that it might not require any Power Cell - type conditioner.
Happy Listening! |
Alright guysI tried using the wireworld XLR and to me the transparent XL sound better with the rouge amp even though they aren't fully calibrated for it.
We will use transparent XLRs and straight wire speaker cables. |
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A thousand thanks to Jay for the great listening session last weekend! The trip from Switzerland was worth it. It was a real pleasure to meet you and your wife. The dedication to your endless project is very impressive. You have helped so much in the last few years that it is only fair that you get some help from some of us. I am sure many of us would love for you to go to the Munich show in 2022 ( https://www.highendsociety.de/high-end-44.html) and get a report of what you hear. Get yourself a plane ticket and I will take care of the hotel. Love the idea of a shoot out with affordable gears from time to time, it spices things up a bit, can’t wait for the results. Thank you Viber for stepping up to the plate. |
Jay,
Impressive 950 lbs leg press. Don't lock your knees--arthritis danger. I thought you were going easy because of 4 herniated discs in your back. I hope you develop a likeness for these good class D amps. The Rouge is only 23 lbs, Voyager similar. Your 5 year old daughter could carry my 6 lb Mytek. |
In the 70's, Ampzilla was popular as a warmish SS amp, when most SS amps were awful. I was a tube guy then. Jim Bongiorno was a colorful character. The 200 W/ch Ampzilla was a powerhouse then, Son of Ampzilla 100W/ch, Grandson 50W/ch. I don't know how the 2000's have changed. |
@keithr , Please email Jay and he will pay shipping both ways, your Ampzilla 2000s have a great chance to equal the Amps in Jay's stable. Viber has started the reader send in program, please be the next so we can all hear how close Bongiorno's best design comes to mega-buck amps. His email is on his YouTube site, Jay's Audio Lab. |
Jay,
I am surprised you changed your mind and decided to use Transparent (T) XLR's between the DAC and undisclosed preamp, and then between the preamp and amps. But I want you to show your favorite electronics in the best light, which seems to be with the T's. Perhaps my Rouge will also be shown in the same best light, although it is unknown whether the T which is tuned for your system will also give the same benefits for my amp, which is what we were concerned about.
I know that it is lots of work to make the A/B video with all the recording, level matching, editing, etc, and you only want to do it once, which I still appreciate. But informal listening with cable swapping is more fun. My amp doesn't need warmup, the music stops within 1 second of turning the amp off, and I suppose the amp can be turned on again after 30 min while you listen to the other amp. So try the Wideworld XLR cables to see if you find the same comparative differences between my Rouge and your undisclosed amp. Take your time, and have fun with your buddies doing this, playing lots of music. You have already seen how the Rouge is respectable, so it should be fun. I wouldn't want you to do this if I thought the Rouge would be mediocre and you would hate it. If you find that the same differences apply with either the Wireworld or the T's, and you find that the T's make both my amp and yours sound better, then go for the T setup to record the video A/B. I won't care if you get around to the video next week. More important is that you have fun and we all learn something.
Aside from this project, it is important for you to find out whether the T's let lots of other electronics offer the same benefits as with your present setup. We all know that nothing stays with you very long, with the possible exception of the XLF. So how will you feel trying to sell the T's with the caveat that they don't have the same benefits in buyers' systems? If you do the above with different amps and preamps, and the T doesn't have to be sent back to the company for retuning, that is a tremendous advantage for your buyer.
I welcome another shootout between yyz's modded Voyager GaN and my Rouge in Jay's system. People are going ape about the Voyager. In fact, because of the Voyager's sweetness combined with excellent detail and dynamics, I won't be surprised if people here pronounce it as the best challenger to the giants. Just keep the Rouge until the Voyager and possibly others are heard. What a party! |
Interesting post above....I guess Keith expressed his feelings on WBF instead of saying it here. |
From a post keithr made on WBF
"When I hear folks say $15k amplifiers are budget oriented, I feel the hobby has lost its way (see the crazy amp dude's YouTube channel that considers Pass Labs "mid fi"). The average Stereophile reader's system is $19k, but this is WBF after all so I guess it's expected. The reason this hobby has shrunk so much is the focus in the audiophile media and community on high priced bling of the month - I chuckled two years ago when TAS declared the $50k speaker category as "highly competitive." Dagostino is famously designed on form over function. Have you seen the internals of a Constellation compared with the expensive case? Why does carbon fibre and installation lights *on the back(!)* of a Chronosonic impress people?"
keithr, don't you think it would be more accurate to say the crazy amp dude placed Pass Labs in his middle tier group based on amps he has personally owned?
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yyzsantabarbara has had delays from stupid Fedex. He expects to listen to his ricevs' modded Voyager GaN starting Mon. He offered to send Jay this amp as well as the Benchmark AHB2. I know the stereo AHB2 sound. It has wonderful purity, much like my Mytek, but it is leaner than my Rouge. I sent Jay the Rouge because I knew it will have more appeal to this group of people. Jay probably will find the stereo AHB2 too lean for him, but yyz and jimmy both say that 2 mono AHB2's are much more dynamic. |
Are there any other amps coming in? Wasn’t someone sending Benchmarks?
I offered my Ampzillas but didn’t read any takers. |
Im going to put out this first thought:
Class D has outstanding bass control. Very impressed with the sheer grip on the woofers. This is why I said it before, Merrill Audio 118s had outstanding bass. I honestly DO NOT think mid tier amps best class D with regards to bass control. The top tier amps have the grip but even those have to fight class D hard in the bass the department.
If you want bass control and can biamp your speakers, do yourself a favor and buy class d for the lows.
The speed of the lows is really next level. |
Ok folks,
The rouge amplifier is plugged in.
Here is what will be happening:
-Rouge amp
-Undisclosed preamp
-Transparent XLR cables (both sets)
Rouge plugged into the synergistic Research Powercell with stock powercord on the amp.
-Straight wire speaker cables
-Critical mass stand under the amp
Initial impressions: (3 mins into it)
Not bad at all.
That said, you all know that i no longer get carried away with 5 min of listening. To me, the connection to the music happens (or doesn’t happen)after sitting down for at least 1-2 hours. My ears will inform me of the character of the component being evaluated.
Tomorrow night, i will do my full audition and recordings. For now, i will let the system play music for the next 24 hours. |
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Jay, we all know this is a blind date for you. You're used to uptown ladies but after much prodding, given in to taking out that really nice friend of a friend for coffee. We all trust you will give her the respect and chance she deserves.
And after the date, we want to know the juicy details, whether there will be a second date, and the rate and ranking. 😅
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Jay and Viber, please discuss in private and decide. Give us your rationale and we will live with it.
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Well the one thing i can say is that we couldn't use transparent speaker cables with this amp because the binding posts don't take the massive spades these opus cables come with.
Ok so are we doing DAC direct or not?? |
Dac direct only for non-serious musings. Everyone knows top preamps will make everything sound better. You conclusively proved that many moons ago and stated as such many times here and on your videos. Why even debating this? You got preamps that are top notch, pick one.
Since we have no idea what your preamp is because you won't tell us, it's pretty impossible for us to make a recommendation. Only you know what cards you are holding |
Ok guys,
What's the shootout going to be? I need to know today. |
Agreed,
as above. It is an unfair match between a $3.5K XLR versus a $12K XLR.
Happy Listening! |
Jay, you love the Transparent XLR's and speaker cables so much, that it would be worthwhile to speak with Transparent and find out whether they can be used between any preamp and amp. Long after my A/B is done, you will want to know this for your own testing of other electronics that you try in the future. On the other hand, If the Transparent between preamp and amp is uniquely calibrated for that combo, then I agree that for this A/B it is wise to use the Wireworld and your cheap speaker cables to avoid apples/oranges variability.
Still, the dynamic swings will mostly relate to the amps, which are both powerful. Your XLF's are very efficient, so for most of the songs, little of their power reserves will be challenged. Even with my delicate electrostatics, I don't use much power at the modest SPL's I listen at. If I use a mere 20 watts on some orchestral material, this Rouge revealed to me how the Mytek is dynamically compressed by comparison. And that is with my Rane EQ with little gain acting as a preamp. That's why I say that for our purposes, DAC direct will be sufficiently capable of providing decent dynamics. This DAC's electronics are likely better than my Rane's. And we can have the maximum clarity from both amps to make this A/B listening exercise much easier and revealing.
Again, your listening with my Rouge amp now will give you the authority to know what is best, before you embark on the formal video A/B for us. |
Yes - it has the optional preamp module and yes it probably puts a lot of preamps to shame but not the caliber of preamps I’ve had in here.
The only good thing about using the undisclosed preamp is that i can at least use one set of transparent XLR (from DAC to this preamp) since it is calibrated for this preamp and dac. The second XLR would be wireworld which would go from the preamp into the amp.
I also warn you all: as good as the wireworld is, you are still talking about a $3500 XLR versus a $12k XLR. The difference is quite noticeable between both.
I think the presentation would be somewhat more "next level" if we use the undisclosed preamp because one set of transparent XLR would be used. This would maximize the performance coming from the DAC and preamp.
I also don't think that the DAC will quote show the dynamic swings as clear as using one of my preamps.
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DAC direct makes a lot of sense - besides, aren’t we talking about a $30k+ DAC/Pre that probably has a really good preamp function/volume control? |
Because you're just focusing on the sound of the 2 amps, DAC direct seems like a worthy method to discover the differences between the amps, and if possible adding in the 725 as a second "opinion" just to make sure there weren't any compatibility issues going DAC direct? |
The bottom line is that Jay will be doing the listening and will choose whichever of his SS amps and preamps make him comfortable. I just would like to avoid any tube equipment, because I am entering my amp as a strong contender for clarity/neutrality/dynamics. For ultimate clarity, I have no doubt that DAC direct will bring out the best of my amp and his amp. If Jay is uncomfortable about brightness in his system, he said that the Constellation has a little warmth, and he still highly rated it #2 behind #1 which is Boulder. I would be happy with Constellation, and then DAC direct shouldn't make him uncomfortable. My guess is that the Wireworld XLR's are warmer sounding than the Synergistic's but I could be wrong on that. Still, it would be nice for him to say whether the undisclosed amp is more revealing/neutral than the Constellation, since that affects whether he wants to do DAC direct. He hasn't yet rated the undisclosed amp, so that is an unknown to us. After my 1st choice of DAC direct, 2nd choice would be 725, 3rd and last choice would be the undisclosed preamp.
Brightness won't be a problem if the SPL's are modest for this A/B.
Jay, I hope you have already heard my amp for yourself, so you will have some insight of what you want to do. To test loud dynamics, you can include a song that doesn't have much HF percussion, so any brightness won't bother you for this song. For other songs with lots of HF brilliance, the SPL's will be modest so you won't suffer. Even a brilliant song of Metallica is satisfying at modest levels. I suggest some tasteful Nils Lofgren--you can avoid "Keith don't go," or "Man in the Moon" if you are sick of them. Female voice would be good also. Let's hear some good acoustic guitar twangs, HF percussion like chimes, bells, triangles, as with Lofgren or female voices.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts. Thanks Jay for your efforts. |
thezaks.Understood. Just worried about incompatibility issues between the two, which will screw up any comparison, including clarity.
I defer to Viber. It's his amp.
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keep in mind that a linestage also has its "preferred" amps to sound good. I am good with whatever makes sense guys. I am just wanting to do one single shootout and that is it.
Yes, the Dac direct could mean a little "brightness" will be added, but we all know that.
The 725 is awesome, but i can’t say it has been 100% of the time a full match for every amp i have had in here.
The 725/Constellation was an outstanding pairing, but now i remember that i did have synergistic cables at that point in time and now i don’t have synergistic. Anyhow, I am good with whatever you guys want. Is it possible to reach a decision by tomorrow night so i can begin to record on Friday at midnight?
Discuss it amongst yourselves and i will be checking in. YOU ALL will be directing me what you want front and center. |
derekw_hawaii,
I agree with what you mentioned, but viber6 might feel the exact opposite, preferring without a preamp for clarity.
Dave
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I like ron17 suggestion that the 725 preamp be used for both the Rogue and the unknown amps. Most of us have preamps and I worry that the DAC connection is insufficient / lacks that synergy, as Jay pointed out in the past. I'm not sure anyone could extrapolate further if things went south for either amp. Put another way, it would be extremely difficult to blame the 725 for a poor showing, as opposed to a DAC straight up. Also, am curious if Viber's can scale up with a monster pre.
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WC,
One idea is to do it both ways. If not for the video, at least for your listening and your comments.
Dave
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My preference is DAC direct. |
Yes, DAC direct is most logical, as logydoghan says. We don't have to worry about synergy with the undisclosed preamp + amp vs lack of synergy with undisclosed preamp + mine. The fewer the number of variables, the better. For A/B'ing at moderate SPL's, the preamp isn't necessary. DAC direct gives maximum purity from either amp. Both amps are powerful. |
First of all this is not an even playing field. Having the undisclosed preamp / amp go against the undisclosed preamp / Rogue amp gives a huge advantage to the undisclosed pre / amp combo. I suggested the 725 preamp used for both the Rogue and the unknown amps....However, going DAC direct into all amps sounds like a fair test also. I'm good either way. Thanks to both parties for their time and effort.
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I'd almost say just let Viber pick whatever he thinks will give his amp the best chance. But he only gets to pick once - agree with you there WC. One shootout is enough - choose your favored combination |
If this is the case I still vote for DAC direct. This is not about your current gear vs your previous gear. This is about comparing two power amps head to head. So the less thing in the chain, the more we can hear from the amp directly. |
The issue is people are used to the full system performance which includes all my cables and preamps.
I will be doing this shootout ONCE.I am not going to rotate gear because that becomes a job in itself. People are saying for me to try the ref6se then my 725 and finally another combination. I can’t go in that quest.
I want ONE COMBINATION and let the cards fall where they may.
I highly encourage those of you who read this thread to go ahead and chime in now.
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Dac direct is my vote jay. I stated this on Y Tube as well. |
I'm getting a lot of votes for DAC direct.... |
I also vote for DAC direct. That way we have less components in the chain and can hear the amps directly. Adding a preamp may bring closer the SQ of two amps because it adds more signature into the sound. But it's just my opinion. |
zprr,
I am even considering visiting Jay and posing with him. Two fit men with different presentations--light and heavy weights, LOL. Jay gets the front cover of the magazine, I get the back cover. |
Wireworld platinum 7 and silver eclipse 8 |
